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Thread: Research that vegan diet is best and our ancestors were not big meat eaters page 7

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by eenu View Post
    However, my background as a post doctoral researcher has also allowed me to gain the skills needed to interpret these papers/research, since for every good paper there are 5 BS ones. It also allows me to have good access to all the medical journals to read them for myself, since anyone can polish a turd. Having covered probably 80%-85% of the papers this guy references so far I can testify he isn't polishing turds and the data presented within is substantive enough to hold credibility.
    That is cool. I'm always interested in refining my knowledge. Please post some papers that you regard as high quality that would deepen our understanding of healthy living.

    It can be really hard to sort through the BS studies, as you say. Perhaps we can have a 'published paper' filtering/reviewing type thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by eenu View Post
    And yet your telling me to go and search for the information just like I told you the same thing. Except when I say it, its not good enough but when you do it is!? The links I provided on page one link to the website which is full of hundreds of videos each linked to relevant studies.
    I'm confused. You're asking other people to provide links for you? I thought you said that you had access to the high quality studies? I can't speak for other posters but I lack such access and would welcome critical discussion of leading edge nutrition research.

    Quote Originally Posted by eenu View Post
    Well first I am posting in the research section of the forum, you know, the section where you are going to get challenges to the paleo way of doing things. To not challenge what your doing on a daily basis makes you a fool. I follow the PB, so I am challenging everything I have known for the last year +!
    Good stuff. Keep doing this, although there's a difference between doing this an banging a drum...

    Quote Originally Posted by eenu View Post
    No one has yet been able to explain how three major paleo type sites on the net all with apparently credible evidence, all with huge followings when combined and followed to the letter only allow you to eat coconut milk, berries and veggies.
    Uh.... What 3 types? Is it Loren Cordain, Robb Wolk And Mark? Because from where I sit one of my criticisms about paleo/primal is that the leading figures all seem fairly incestuous.
    Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

    Griff's cholesterol primer
    5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
    Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
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  2. #62
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    Let's just say that, with the money I used to spend on supplements for my vegan diet, I can now spend that on grass-fed beef, the best pastured bacon, and free-range eggs, and still have money left over.

    Everything from B 12, to digestive enzymes, to MSM, and a host of micronutrients, all in hopes of improving my failing health.

    You know, the stuff I get from FOOD now.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by eenu View Post
    I presume your trying to insinuate I am someone else? If so, no I am not 'Durian Rider'.
    well judging from your posts to the only thread you've responded to..your own...I'd say you're as obsessed as he is about vegetarianism. Don't tell me you're as gaunt as he is, too.
    Would I be putting a grain-feed cow on a fad diet if I took it out of the feedlot and put it on pasture eating the grass nature intended?

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott F View Post
    well judging from your posts to the only thread you've responded to..your own...I'd say you're as obsessed as he is about vegetarianism. Don't tell me you're as gaunt as he is, too.
    I'll start by saying I am still looking at the posts people have sent and reply in due course after I have watched the videos etc. Moving on....

    @Scott. You haven't read my posts. If you had you would see I am not responding to the thread, I started it. In addition I am not obsessed about vegetarianism or veganism. I only discovered this research a few months ago after following the PB for a long while. In fact I have always laughed at vegan's so get off your high horse.

    At the end of the day there is no scientific studies that Paleo is the way to go. By that I mean an overall study of the diet and its effect on the human epidemiology. When there is scientific data actually studying people that have followed this diet and demonstrates blood test results, autopsy analysis of their bodies then you have a firm argument that we are correct. There is actually autopsy results for vegan eaters (aka Pritikin) and that gave very clear evidence of the benefits of his vegan diet and its reversal of his poor health. There are also a number of cancer survivor sites who cured their cancers without chemo showing fairly profound effects.

    If it works for you and it makes you feel good thats great, but my honest interpretation of the people and success stories I read are that most people have been on a 'SAD' and have moved to the PB. Anyone is going to benefit from this move and feel better! I am not disputing that it is better than a 'standard' diet, but is it the all singing and dancing like it makes out? Is it the best you can possibly eat or are we just educating a guess?

    I was looking at the video another person mentioned and I came across this one (the same guy):

    The Paleo Diet Explained - YouTube

    Look at around 30 mins. His claims are just out of this world. Apparently, deficiencies YOU WILL develop as a vegan:

    Zinc, Iron, Omega-3, Iodine, B6 from eating vegan.... really!?

    Any simple search will show that for any of these vitamins/minerals there are many plant/vegetation types in the top 10 providers for each nutrient. These include:

    Toasted Wheat Germ, Pumpkin and squash seeds, watermelon seeds, chocolate, peanuts, spinach, collards, prunes, raisins, Beans, lentils, chick peas, soybeans, kelp, arame, hiziki, kombu, wakame, cranberries, navy beans, strawberries, salt, potatoes, bread, oatmeal, wheat germ, rice, soya beans, peanuts.

    A lot of these sources actually rate higher in content than some animal sources.

    His Omega 3 claim is even more out of this world, he claims you cannot get Omega 3 on a plant based diet.... really!? A basic web search returns:

    "Common sources of n–3 fatty acids include fish oils, algal oil, squid oil, and some plant oils such as echium oil and flaxseed oil."

    How can you take him seriously? The guy is quite frankly a bit of a joke in my opinion, first for his comments stated above but also by the fact he could only quote one piece of research from one researcher. He even freely states elsewhere in the video that anyone could pick research to discredit paleo just as he can pick research to back himself up. Someone said my video was lies, well I spotted a fair few in Mr Paleo here!

    It makes the whole attitude of those people here that they are right and everyone else is wrong even more incredible. Those that say they do it because they feel it helps them or they feel best on it - fair play and well done, I hope it continues to work for you as it has me. But there is no definitive study to say this is right and categorically prove everything else is wrong!

    The other thing I find disturbing is that all three of the 'Paleo' main characters stand to profit from you following their way of thinking. This is probably more of a personal feeling that factual but I always feel that if someone stands to make a profit then their better interests lie with their wallet and not with you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eenu View Post
    I'll start by saying I am still looking at the posts people have sent and reply in due course after I have watched the videos etc. Moving on....

    @Scott. You haven't read my posts. If you had you would see I am not responding to the thread, I started it. In addition I am not obsessed about vegetarianism or veganism. I only discovered this research a few months ago after following the PB for a long while. In fact I have always laughed at vegan's so get off your high horse.

    At the end of the day there is no scientific studies that Paleo is the way to go. By that I mean an overall study of the diet and its effect on the human epidemiology. When there is scientific data actually studying people that have followed this diet and demonstrates blood test results, autopsy analysis of their bodies then you have a firm argument that we are correct. There is actually autopsy results for vegan eaters (aka Pritikin) and that gave very clear evidence of the benefits of his vegan diet and its reversal of his poor health. There are also a number of cancer survivor sites who cured their cancers without chemo showing fairly profound effects.

    If it works for you and it makes you feel good thats great, but my honest interpretation of the people and success stories I read are that most people have been on a 'SAD' and have moved to the PB. Anyone is going to benefit from this move and feel better! I am not disputing that it is better than a 'standard' diet, but is it the all singing and dancing like it makes out? Is it the best you can possibly eat or are we just educating a guess?

    I was looking at the video another person mentioned and I came across this one (the same guy):

    The Paleo Diet Explained - YouTube

    Look at around 30 mins. His claims are just out of this world. Apparently, deficiencies YOU WILL develop as a vegan:

    Zinc, Iron, Omega-3, Iodine, B6 from eating vegan.... really!?

    Any simple search will show that for any of these vitamins/minerals there are many plant/vegetation types in the top 10 providers for each nutrient. These include:

    Toasted Wheat Germ, Pumpkin and squash seeds, watermelon seeds, chocolate, peanuts, spinach, collards, prunes, raisins, Beans, lentils, chick peas, soybeans, kelp, arame, hiziki, kombu, wakame, cranberries, navy beans, strawberries, salt, potatoes, bread, oatmeal, wheat germ, rice, soya beans, peanuts.

    A lot of these sources actually rate higher in content than some animal sources.

    His Omega 3 claim is even more out of this world, he claims you cannot get Omega 3 on a plant based diet.... really!? A basic web search returns:

    "Common sources of n3 fatty acids include fish oils, algal oil, squid oil, and some plant oils such as echium oil and flaxseed oil."

    How can you take him seriously? The guy is quite frankly a bit of a joke in my opinion, first for his comments stated above but also by the fact he could only quote one piece of research from one researcher. He even freely states elsewhere in the video that anyone could pick research to discredit paleo just as he can pick research to back himself up. Someone said my video was lies, well I spotted a fair few in Mr Paleo here!

    It makes the whole attitude of those people here that they are right and everyone else is wrong even more incredible. Those that say they do it because they feel it helps them or they feel best on it - fair play and well done, I hope it continues to work for you as it has me. But there is no definitive study to say this is right and categorically prove everything else is wrong!

    The other thing I find disturbing is that all three of the 'Paleo' main characters stand to profit from you following their way of thinking. This is probably more of a personal feeling that factual but I always feel that if someone stands to make a profit then their better interests lie with their wallet and not with you.
    I don't care about the science, I care about what I observe in my own body and what my medical tests say. They are flawless, I am in fantastic shape, research be damned. This research does not describe why there are thousands, if not more, experiencing unbelievable health and fitness by following this way of life. If the research you cite cannot explain that, then how useful is it to those of us who have found health and happiness?
    "There is a cruelty in life which we must accept with stoicism as the inevitable." -Mizora

  6. #66
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    You said:

    I call it 'Mark's Primal' diet however as there is enough evidence from world experts to suggest that meat was not a large component of 'groks' diet. But then that doesn't go on to mean that meat isn't good for you, since 'groks' lack of meat can be down to environmental conditions, ie lack of animals to hunt or lack of success in hunting it - compared to today where you pick it off a shelf.

    There is actually very, very little evidence in the archaeological record about what Grok really ate. They're not even sure if the first "Grok" (our human ancestor, as opposed to Neanderthals, Flores man, Lucy who may not be our ancestor, etc) lived in Africa, at this point. There is so little evidence that every time they discover a new bone they invent 4 new theories around it. In general, we know that omnivorous animals tend to favor meat when it's available over plants (Grizzly bear salmon fishing, etc.) that they hunt when they can, and scavenge when they can. Finally, we ARE much better designed for meat consumption than any of our great ape cousins in many ways, which suggests that we have a fairly significant meat eating past. Whether that means 10% of calories from meat or 90% is a dumb question. Almost certainly we sometimes had 20 and sometimes 80, and can do pretty well at either extreme. None of this even addresses the question of what is "optimal" for you though.
    If you are new to the PB - please ignore ALL of this stuff, until you've read the book, or at least http://www.marksdailyapple.com/primal-blueprint-101/ and this (personal fave): http://www.archevore.com/get-started/

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by zoltankemeny View Post
    I don't care about the science, I care about what I observe in my own body and what my medical tests say. They are flawless, I am in fantastic shape, research be damned. This research does not describe why there are thousands, if not more, experiencing unbelievable health and fitness by following this way of life. If the research you cite cannot explain that, then how useful is it to those of us who have found health and happiness?
    The sad thing he has not presented the research at all, just two cherry picked videos that are pretty much bunk, and contained errors in every statement in the first 7 minutes....and when asked for convincing studies does he provides one that is ambivalent at best and even if the results were overwhelmingly convincing (which they were not) involved eating tasteless soy.

    It is logical that Groks ate whatever they could get their hands. If there is evidence (which the OP claims) that vegan is best all I would ask is that they post it so it can be looked at.
    Last edited by Dirlot; 10-09-2012 at 08:23 AM.
    Eating primal is not a diet, it is a way of life.
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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by zoltankemeny View Post
    I don't care about the science, I care about what I observe in my own body and what my medical tests say. They are flawless, I am in fantastic shape, research be damned. This research does not describe why there are thousands, if not more, experiencing unbelievable health and fitness by following this way of life. If the research you cite cannot explain that, then how useful is it to those of us who have found health and happiness?
    You clearly never read what you quoted, either that or you didn't understand. I clearly said if it works for you great, but I am responding to those people who are telling me its fact and its supported by research. Clearly there is no research to prove it is the correct diet to live by. There has been no medical research conducted on those people following a paleo diet over a sufficient period of time at a epidemiological level. However, there has for other diets. Every piece of research supporting paleo has one dismissing it, I am sure the same is said for a vegan diet.

    I follow the PB, I have noticed some health improvements, I have also noticed new issues. I lived for a good number of years before I even found this site following 95% of what is contained in the PB. So there is no point trying to burn me at the stake for raising questions about something I have been practicing for almost a decade and a site I have been following for over a year. I believe the diet is good but I still believe it has short comings, mainly in terms of quantities of animal products to consume on time scaled basis as well as the effects of mycotoxins which I have been experimenting with for some months now and feel the bullet proof exec may actually have a point!

    You have 3 main characters in the paleo arena, they are all making $$ from the likes of you and me. So why don't they take some of these $$ and invest them in some hard medical research? It would not be hard for the likes of Mark Sisson to do regular blood testing, ultrasounds and function tests to prove his claims as well as demonstrating the effects of certain things he is eating either in excess or being deficient on himself. The BPE does plenty of this, however, it is more in the area of mycotoxins and I would be interested to see data for the diet as a whole. Just because I feel good does not mean I am healthy, we have a TV show here that is based on nutrition (the name escapes me). They invited a guy into this food hospital to look at his diet, he was a fruitest. All he ate was fruit, like insane amounts. He said he felt amazing, the best he has ever felt. His medical tests said different.
    Last edited by eenu; 10-09-2012 at 08:34 AM.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by tfarny
    There is actually very, very little evidence in the archaeological record about what Grok really ate.
    And yet a few posts back I was told I was talking crap because there was tons of archaeological evidence to prove I was talking crap!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirlot View Post
    The sad thing he has not presented the research at all, just two cherry picked videos that are pretty much bunk, and contained errors in every statement in the first 7 minutes....and when asked for convincing studies does he provides one that is ambivalent at best and even if the results were overwhelmingly convincing (which they were not) involved eating tasteless soy.

    It is logical that Groks ate whatever they could get their hands. If there is evidence (which the OP claims) that vegan is best all I would ask is that they post it so it can be looked at.
    Wow, reoccurring theme here is peoples inane ability to read! Maybe some research should be conducted about Paleo diet and the loss of reading ability! I have said time and time again I will post the data, the only reason it is taking me so long is wingers like you. Therefore, I need to compile the best papers I can to stop you finding every excuse under the sun that your right and everyone else is wrong.

    Oh and the video I posted above, that was basically linked to from someone here and is written by the apparent 'daddy' of paleo, its bunk and full of lies. But of course with your rose tinted specs on you can only see one way, right?

    EDIT: In fact, is there any point me wasting my time posting it... your only going to dismiss everything that I post. Your a fanboy a cultist and you won't be shown anything that would dare contradict your precious Paleo. Any research I show you, you can come up with some level of disproof. Anyone reading my PhD thesis could do the same, as well as the 400 other thesis and research papers referenced within. I could link you to hundreds of research papers all of which show conclusive proof that red meat leads to an increased incidence of colon cancer, but you'd only have a smart comment or call it bunk and lies so what is the point!?
    Last edited by eenu; 10-09-2012 at 08:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eenu View Post
    You clearly never read what you quoted, either that or you didn't understand. I clearly said if it works for you great, but I am responding to those people who are telling me its fact and its supported by research. Clearly there is no research to prove it is the correct diet to live by. There has been no medical research conducted on those people following a paleo diet over a sufficient period of time at a epidemiological level. However, there has for other diets. Every piece of research supporting paleo has one dismissing it, I am sure the same is said for a vegan diet.

    I follow the PB, I have noticed some health improvements, I have also noticed new issues. I lived for a good number of years before I even found this site following 95% of what is contained in the PB. So there is no point trying to burn me at the stake for raising questions about something I have been practicing for almost a decade and a site I have been following for over a year. I believe the diet is good but I still believe it has short comings, mainly in terms of quantities of animal products to consume on time scaled basis as well as the effects of mycotoxins which I have been experimenting with for some months now and feel the bullet proof exec may actually have a point!

    You have 3 main characters in the paleo arena, they are all making $$ from the likes of you and me. So why don't they take some of these $$ and invest them in some hard medical research? It would not be hard for the likes of Mark Sisson to do regular blood testing, ultrasounds and function tests to prove his claims as well as demonstrating the effects of certain things he is eating either in excess or being deficient on himself. The BPE does plenty of this, however, it is more in the area of mycotoxins and I would be interested to see data for the diet as a whole. Just because I feel good does not mean I am healthy, we have a TV show here that is based on nutrition (the name escapes me). They invited a guy into this food hospital to look at his diet, he was a fruitest. All he ate was fruit, like insane amounts. He said he felt amazing, the best he has ever felt. His medical tests said different.
    Just because you feel or even look good doesn't mean you're healthy. There are plenty of people here who've posted their own medical tests--I don't know why you need Sisson's or any one person's specifically. I don't really care about Mark Sisson or the other guys and they don't get any money from me. I don't need "research" to confirm what medical tests have confirmed for me. You seem completely obsessed with the idea of research, all the while ignoring basic experience and common sense. Like you need someone else to tell you what is right and wrong. Why don't you start doing the research yourself and stop expecting other people to do the work for you?
    "There is a cruelty in life which we must accept with stoicism as the inevitable." -Mizora

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