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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legbiter View Post
    Under libertarianism the primary domestic job of the government is making sure the common people don't rise up against their masters.
    "When fascism comes to America, it will be called ant-fascism" ~ Huey Long

    Libertarians throw out any and all class analysis so they can obsessively pursue an all important "government"/"private" distinction. A distinction that's really not the end all/be all.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legbiter View Post
    What I find fascinating about Libertarianism is how close it is to Communism. Libertarianism isn't about being accountable for your actions; it's about making sure no one can hold you to account for your actions. Under libertarianism the rich and powerful would be able to crush and exploit and torment the rest of the population as they pleased, the common people would have no legal recourse, and if they tried anything extra-legal that's when the government would come crashing down. Under libertarianism the primary domestic job of the government is making sure the common people don't rise up against their masters.
    Where the heck did you learn about libertarianism? That doesn't accurately describe anything about a free and voluntary society and, in fact, it actually fits the description of our current governmental system. In our current system the rich and elite already monopolize and exploit the people with use of government force and violence and offers of "security" and "free" shit that makes people unmotivated, uneducated, desensitized, and dependent on the system for every decision they make from the size of their soda to whom they can marry. The US has the highest population of prisoners per capita, higher than China! How is the system helping the poor and disadvantaged now?? By throwing them thousands of (fake) Fed dollars in students loans that they can never ever pay back in their lifetime or by ruining their life with BS drug and weapons convictions? Or by taking a large portion of their income so that they can't properly prepare for their retirement and end up living at poverty levels in the last years of their lives because the government spent their money on wars and bailouts to failiing companies and corn and soy mega-farms.

    You have it backwards, my friend. The state is the aggressor; the rich and powerful monopolies that are in bed with the government would not exist in a stateless society. Corporations are products of the government. Explain how a (bad) monopoly could exist without the government that enforces laws that are created by these corporations to suppress competition and steer markets. A truly free market doesn't have protectionism. A business without government has to survive on its own merits. And with competing currencies, we'd have even leveler playing fields in free markets. Right now the government forces us to use one currency or they throw us in a cage. In a truly free society we can trade many things of value and have choices. The government = monopolies and violence
    Last edited by j3nn; 09-26-2012 at 04:04 PM.
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncephalized View Post
    When a person dies, is their property still theirs? I have trouble reconciling how the property of a deceased person can still be owned, when the owner no longer exists. There is no philosophical reason why a blood relative should have priority over anyone else for access to the resources formerly controlled by someone who no longer exists.
    That definitely sounds more civilized. Hey, sorry about your father passing away, but we need to throw you out of this house because it belongs to the people now.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rojo View Post
    "When fascism comes to America, it will be called ant-fascism" ~ Huey Long

    Libertarians throw out any and all class analysis so they can obsessively pursue an all important "government"/"private" distinction. A distinction that's really not the end all/be all.
    I'm sure many libertarians would have no problem at all with religious or other tyranny, as long as it isn't imposed by the government. The idea that oppression or coercion is only oppression or coercion if the government does it is a common libertarian belief.

    But the reason libertarianism won't work in a full-blown form is that it relies on the assumption that people value freedom above all else. They don't. Or, at least they don't as soon as some creature comfort is threatened. People like a balance of freedom and security, and when they feel they don't have enough of one of those, then they want the pendulum to swing towards the other.

    Since you quote, I'll add one as well.

    "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."
    John Rogers.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legbiter View Post
    I'm sure many libertarians would have no problem at all with religious or other tyranny, as long as it isn't imposed by the government. The idea that oppression or coercion is only oppression or coercion if the government does it is a common libertarian belief.

    But the reason libertarianism won't work in a full-blown form is that it relies on the assumption that people value freedom above all else. They don't. Or, at least they don't as soon as some creature comfort is threatened. People like a balance of freedom and security, and when they feel they don't have enough of one of those, then they want the pendulum to swing towards the other.
    You don't need to use threats of violence to provide for those human needs.

    Why is it such a terrible thing to want to opt-out of something you do not like, and are morally opposed to?

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legbiter View Post
    The idea that oppression or coercion is only oppression or coercion if the government does it is a common libertarian belief.
    Yep. If my employer makes me piss in a cup or my landlord makes me get rid of my cat, I'm still "free".

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by DamienMaddox View Post
    You don't need to use threats of violence to provide for those human needs.

    Why is it such a terrible thing to want to opt-out of something you do not like, and are morally opposed to?
    A) Damn dirty hippy.

    B) Join the Amish.



  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by j3nn View Post
    The state is the aggressor; the rich and powerful monopolies that are in bed with the government would not exist in a stateless society.
    Sure they would. Monopoly control is the animal drive of any good capitalist. And without state monopoly on violence, the rich would form their own security apparti.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rojo View Post
    Yep. If my employer makes me piss in a cup or my landlord makes me get rid of my cat, I'm still "free".
    You can choose another employer or another landlord. You can even chose neither. You're not born into either choice. In the case of government, you're stuck with it whether you like it or not.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rojo View Post
    Yep. If my employer makes me piss in a cup or my landlord makes me get rid of my cat, I'm still "free".
    I know. The mind boggles.

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