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  1. #41
    Grok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legbiter View Post
    Go found your Libertopia Grok. I'll move my hog farm/meth lab right next door to you. We'll be best buds, banding together to thwart our lands being raped and our womenfolk pillaged.
    BTW, I probably wouldn't even notice the meth lab. It could actually increase property values.

    As far as pollution goes, there are free market solutions to that. The flip side of the Libertarian coin is property rights.

    So on one side you have non-aggression (except in self-defense), and on the other side is property rights.

    Pollution from a pig farm falls under property rights, and in a free society, I should be able to sue you in a non-gun-based-monopolistic court system to protect my property from damage.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grok View Post
    So instead, you think you should put a gun to the heirs and use violence against them to take the property which they inherited and use that money on yourself instead.

    ....right....

    and they are the parasites??
    I love how you are imputing a whole bunch of ideas and intentions to me that I never professed. I am claiming that hereditary or other claims to the perpetual and exclusive use of land and its resources may be illegitimate. I didn't make any claims about what system I thought should exist to replace the current paradigm allowing ownership of places, which I find inherently absurd.
    Today I will: Eat food, not poison. Plan for success, not settle for failure. Live my real life, not a virtual one. Move and grow, not sit and die.

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  3. #43
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    Just try starting a pig farm in a free society where you start polluting all your neighbors property and start lowering the value of all your neighbors land.

    You aren't going to be able to sell enough pigs to be able to afford to protect your farm from all of your angry neighbors.

    The only reason giant pig farms exist today, polluting entire towns, is because they used government protection to protect their property.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncephalized View Post
    I love how you are imputing a whole bunch of ideas and intentions to me that I never professed. I am claiming that hereditary or other claims to the perpetual and exclusive use of land and its resources may be illegitimate. I didn't make any claims about what system I thought should exist to replace the current paradigm allowing ownership of places, which I find inherently absurd.
    So, if you don't think people should be free to decide what do with their property when they die, then what exactly do you think should happen?

    The only alternative is to use force and violence against people to force them to do something against their will.

    Is there some third option I am missing?!

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grok View Post
    Just try starting a pig farm in a free society where you start polluting all your neighbors property and start lowering the value of all your neighbors land.

    You aren't going to be able to sell enough pigs to be able to afford to protect your farm from all of your angry neighbors.

    The only reason giant pig farms exist today, polluting entire towns, is because they used government protection to protect their property.
    Hmm... what will the angry neighbors do?

    Used force and violence...
    Band together to enforce rules against pig/meth farms in areas that they deem inappropriate...
    And continue to use force and violence to make sure it stays that way.

    Maybe make exceptions for a guy who pays them to be allowed to keep his pig farm open...

    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
    ~Friedrich Nietzsche
    And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.


  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by cori93437 View Post
    Hmm... what will the angry neighbors do?

    Used force and violence...
    Band together to enforce rules against pig/meth farms in areas that they deem inappropriate...
    And continue to use force and violence to make sure it stays that way.

    Maybe make exceptions for a guy who pays them to be allowed to keep his pig farm open...

    Perhaps not. Perhaps they will use a free-market court system which would rule in favor of the community over the single pig farmer since the pig farmer was indeed polluting the air with bad odors which was indeed lowering property values which could actually be proven in a civilized court.

    However, let's say that didn't work and the pig farmer refused to comply. Then yes, violence would be justified because the pig farmer had been shown in court that he was indeed polluting the atmosphere and thus polluting on other people's private property thereby lowering the value of their land.

    Libertarians are not pacifists, we believe in violence for self-defense. We support the ownership of guns.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grok View Post
    Just try starting a pig farm in a free society where you start polluting all your neighbors property and start lowering the value of all your neighbors land.

    You aren't going to be able to sell enough pigs to be able to afford to protect your farm from all of your angry neighbors.

    The only reason giant pig farms exist today, polluting entire towns, is because they used government protection to protect their property.
    So you're saying it's OK and reasonable for angry citizens to violently object to a pig farm by hopping over a fence with pitchforks, but not OK for those same citizens to object to (or approve of) a pig farm by voting or other collective regulatory action?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grok View Post
    So, if you don't think people should be free to decide what do with their property when they die, then what exactly do you think should happen?

    The only alternative is to use force and violence against people to force them to do something against their will.

    Is there some third option I am missing?!
    When a person dies, is their property still theirs? I have trouble reconciling how the property of a deceased person can still be owned, when the owner no longer exists. There is no philosophical reason why a blood relative should have priority over anyone else for access to the resources formerly controlled by someone who no longer exists, especially in the case of real estate, which cannot in fact be "given" or "taken", only occupied or vacated, used or not used. For the record I have no issue with bequeathing possessions. Bequeath away. I have an issue with the idea of real estate being a possession in the same sense.
    Today I will: Eat food, not poison. Plan for success, not settle for failure. Live my real life, not a virtual one. Move and grow, not sit and die.

    My Primal Journal

  8. #48
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    Kennnn, Odds & Ends as a country wouldn't last long since the population argues all the time.
    If I just said LOL, I lied. Do or do not. There is no try.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by justyouraveragecavemen View Post
    Kennnn, Odds & Ends as a country wouldn't last long since the population argues all the time.
    And Kenn would be the furor stirring that pot.
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
    ~Friedrich Nietzsche
    And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.


  10. #50
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    What I find fascinating about Libertarianism is how close it is to Communism. Libertarianism isn't about being accountable for your actions; it's about making sure no one can hold you to account for your actions. Under libertarianism the rich and powerful would be able to crush and exploit and torment the rest of the population as they pleased, the common people would have no legal recourse, and if they tried anything extra-legal that's when the government would come crashing down. Under libertarianism the primary domestic job of the government is making sure the common people don't rise up against their masters.

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