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  1. #101
    Rojo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j3nn View Post
    Nature invented anarchism. People didn't evolve with collectivism (enslavement) in their DNA, that was learned behavior over thousands of years. Anarchy is the most natural state known to existence. I know some will argue that tribalism is natural to humans, but the difference is whether it's a voluntary community for survival and companionship and family or compulsory and against the will of those in the tribe, which is unnatural and stressful.
    "Anarchy" means "no state". Yes "the state" is something that grew over time. But anarchists were largely collectivists who wanted to dismantle the state. That didn't mean they wanted no government, they saw a distinction that I think you're missing.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rojo View Post
    "Anarchy" means "no state". Yes "the state" is something that grew over time. But anarchists were largely collectivists who wanted to dismantle the state. That didn't mean they wanted no government, they saw a distinction that I think you're missing.
    Well technically it means "no ruler" but it amounts to pretty much the same thing.
    Today I will: Eat food, not poison. Plan for success, not settle for failure. Live my real life, not a virtual one. Move and grow, not sit and die.

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  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncephalized View Post
    I think I'll keep my place in this horrible, oppressively violent modern democracy where my actual risk of dying violently or at a young age due to disease or injury is orders of magnitude lower than it would be living in the primitive state. And I'll keep modeling my life on my ideals of non-violence
    Unfortunately you contradict yourself here.

    Your "oppressively violent modem democracy" that you give credit for your low risk of dying violently, comes at the expense of all the countries your government is waging war on. The thing is, its not even necessary to kill all those people halfway across the world to maintain and lengthen your life expectancy. It's simply all you know and you can't be bothered to think about peaceful ways to exist, accepting the violent status quo is just convenient for you.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by DamienMaddox View Post
    Unfortunately you contradict yourself here.

    Your "oppressively violent modem democracy" that you give credit for your low risk of dying violently, comes at the expense of all the countries your government is waging war on. The thing is, its not even necessary to kill all those people halfway across the world to maintain and lengthen your life expectancy. It's simply all you know and you can't be bothered to think about peaceful ways to exist, accepting the violent status quo is just convenient for you.
    You, you, you...


    Games the government idiots play... I don't think Uncephalized has any control over.
    Do you think he should go stop them, all by himself?

    Perhaps YOU should...
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
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  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by DamienMaddox View Post
    Unfortunately you contradict yourself here.

    Your "oppressively violent modem democracy" that you give credit for your low risk of dying violently, comes at the expense of all the countries your government is waging war on. The thing is, its not even necessary to kill all those people halfway across the world to maintain and lengthen your life expectancy. It's simply all you know and you can't be bothered to think about peaceful ways to exist, accepting the violent alternative is just convenient for you.
    Or maybe I have thought about it, quite a bit, and would prefer to work on not committing international acts of violence, or oppressing our own citizens at home, while still maintaining the general structure of law and democracy? The fact (and I do believe it's a fact) that we can have an advanced, wealthy and non-violent society at home, without waging offensive war abroad, is what gives me hope for further improvement in future.

    There are a hell of a lot of things I would change about the way our system works if someone gave me access to the levers of power, don't get me wrong. Waging any kind of offensive or preemptive warfare is probably the biggest one, followed closely by our horrible local practice of prosecuting people for "crimes" that are non-violent and/or victimless. Throwing away the whole idea of government and law, however, is not one of the changes I would make--I think that would end up being a trade most people would regret.

    I would also whole-heartedly support experimentation in radical changes, though. I'd love to carve several big, geographically-diverse chunks of North America off and let volunteers go try and build a purely voluntarist society there (the current inhabitants might not appreciate it, though). If it turned out to work well I'd even more there in a heartbeat. But I'm not willing to risk the whole enchilada to find out, KWIM? If the experiment went badly we would lose so much ground it might take millennia to recover socially.
    Today I will: Eat food, not poison. Plan for success, not settle for failure. Live my real life, not a virtual one. Move and grow, not sit and die.

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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rojo View Post
    "Anarchy" means "no state". Yes "the state" is something that grew over time. But anarchists were largely collectivists who wanted to dismantle the state. That didn't mean they wanted no government, they saw a distinction that I think you're missing.
    Why does it matter what "other people" define anarchy as? What matters is the concepts that are being discussed.

    The fact that some people can twist a word that literally means "no rulers" into meaning "no rulers per se" only proves that somewhere in our dna is a gene that can make some people very thick headed.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by cori93437 View Post
    You, you, you...


    Games the government idiots play... I don't think Uncephalized has any control over.
    Do you think he should go stop them, all by himself?

    Perhaps YOU should...
    Voting for government idiots certainly doesn't help matters.

    I think we should stop contributing to the problem. The mentality of "little ole me doesn't matter" is what those government idiots rely on.

    People were singing your tune six months before the Berlin Wall came down.

    You never see the light at the end of the tunnel. It's pitch black until you stumble upon something that works, then its like somebody turned the light switch without warning you. If you're not stumbling though, you'll never find the switch.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by DamienMaddox View Post
    Voting for government idiots certainly doesn't help matters.

    I think we should stop contributing to the problem. The mentality of "little ole me doesn't matter" is what those government idiots rely on.

    People were singing your tune six months before the Berlin Wall came down.

    You never see the light at the end of the tunnel. It's pitch black until you stumble upon something that works, then its like somebody turned the light switch without warning you. If you're not stumbling though, you'll never find the switch.
    What is your point...
    Don't vote for idiots?
    You are talking about politicians... another choice please?

    Don't vote at all?

    Hmm... how did the wall come down?
    What made that happen?
    Did it have anything at all to do with some people who were voted for at some point?
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
    ~Friedrich Nietzsche
    And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.


  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncephalized View Post
    Or maybe I have thought about it, quite a bit, and would prefer to work on not committing international acts of violence, or oppressing our own citizens at home, while still maintaining the general structure of law and democracy? The fact (and I do believe it's a fact) that we can have an advanced, wealthy and non-violent society at home, without waging offensive war abroad, is what gives me hope for further improvement in future.

    There are a hell of a lot of things I would change about the way our system works if someone gave me access to the levers of power, don't get me wrong. Waging any kind of offensive or preemptive warfare is probably the biggest one, followed closely by our horrible local practice of prosecuting people for "crimes" that are non-violent and/or victimless. Throwing away the whole idea of government and law, however, is not one of the changes I would make--I think that would end up being a trade most people would regret.

    I would also whole-heartedly support experimentation in radical changes, though. I'd love to carve several big, geographically-diverse chunks of North America off and let volunteers go try and build a purely voluntarist society there (the current inhabitants might not appreciate it, though). If it turned out to work well I'd even more there in a heartbeat. But I'm not willing to risk the whole enchilada to find out, KWIM? If the experiment went badly we would lose so much ground it might take millennia to recover socially.
    The biggest problem with that, is the whole thing relies on coercion and intimidation. A law is nothing more than a threat (If you do this, we will fine, cage, or hurt you).

    It's a case of ends justifying means. It's not possible to justify means, no matter how good the intentions are.

    If government shut down for a day, or even a week, without announcing it, most people wouldn't even notice. I don't think its a stretch to believe that society is not hinged on the threat that if you do something wrong, government is going to punish you.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncephalized View Post
    I guess you should go let all those New Guinea highlander hunter-gatherers know that they're totally not paleo because they subjugate their women into doing all the manual labor and live in a perpetual state of warfare with neighboring tribes, each of whom will murder any member of the other on sight if caught outside their territory. Oh yeah, and they can't leave and go "pick another tribe" or "start their own tribe", because all of the usable territory is already occupied by people who will murder them if they try to leave, and the only way to be part of a different in-group is to be born into it. Or possibly to be traded into it as a wife (probably not by choice!) during highly ritualized inter-tribe meetings. What an awesome, totally voluntarist society, amirite?
    When did Paleo become synonymous with anarchism or even tribalism for that matter? You reference one group of hunter-gathers who simply evolved to the point of controlling and terrorizing and enslaving their fellow man and you believe they are the epitome of early human beings? So what. They learned, just like the millions before them, how to abuse other people. Humans learned to work and live in tribes, and then they learned how to do it wrongly. That was not how it always was. This behavior developed over generations. The natural state of human existence is what we now refer to as anarchism.

    Most contemporary anthropologists, as well as anarcho-primitivists agree that, for the longest period before recorded history, human society was without established authority or formal political institutions.[18] According to Harold Barclay, long before anarchism emerged as a distinct perspective, human beings lived for thousands of years in societies without government.[19] It was only after the rise of hierarchical societies that anarchist ideas were formulated as a critical response to and rejection of coercive political institutions and hierarchical social relationships. (source)
    This notion that hunter-gatherer societies don't "naturally" have rules and laws, enforced (sometimes violently) by authorities, or that they are ruggedly individualistic rather than communalist, etc. is made up.
    Anarchy means no ruler, not no rules. Even families have rules, but most parents don't throw their children in a cage for 25 years for selling a plant. Of course there must be rules if we want to maintain a functioning society. That doesn't go without saying?!

    But having been brought up in a modern nation-state with very little worry about being shot in the back with an arrow while out hunting for birds' eggs for breakfast, I think I'll keep my place in this horrible, oppressively violent modern democracy where my actual risk of dying violently or at a young age due to disease or injury is orders of magnitude lower than it would be living in the primitive state.
    How positively disconnected from reality you sound! Yes, it's true that Americans and other first world countries live lives of relative ease and luxury compared to others around the world, but it doesn't come without a price. You see, while you are relishing in the fact that you can buy your breakfast at the nearest super mart with little risk of being killed, you and millions of others, myself included, are forced to support a system that slaughters and starves millions of other human beings around the world. That sends thousands of soldiers to their death. That cages millions of people in prisons for victimless crimes. That gives billions of dollars to corporations, many of which are making people in this country chronically ill or killing them--big pharma and agri-business. That allows a corporation like the Federal Reserve to devalue our currency, creating inflation. That takes and takes and takes taxes and Social Security against peoples' will in a giant Ponzi scheme until the day comes when the elderly are sick and impoverished and the low-income people are given cell phones. And while the government gets credit for so much of our relatively sweet lifestyles, the truth is that the free markets are what enables all of the luxuries and privileges that you are so fond of. Without the taxpayer who generates income in the private sector, what would finance all of the government agencies and departments and branches that allegedly provide all of these luxuries? The free markets in a voluntary society could and would provide all of the same necessities, only more efficiently and without the use of force and violence.


    And I'll keep modeling my life on my ideals of non-violence, freedom, rational discourse and application of scientific principles, and hope that's enough to shift the world a little closer to what I'd like it to be in my lifetime, rather than advocating throwing away all the progress we've made over grueling centuries of incremental improvements--along with our fair share of setbacks and blunders--in favor of any kind of utopia, socialist, anarchist, or otherwise.
    I don't think you really know what freedom is. And why would you assume that without the state all of the progress we have made would vanish? That's preposterous and superstitious. If anything, the state suppresses advancements. How long does it take for the FDA to approve of a life-saving drug? 6 years? How much do you have to pay to get taxi medallion license in NYC? Upwards of $1 million? But you are pleased with how the world is becoming molded to your preference, what if others do not want what you want? Why should they have to follow your desire? Why can't individuals be individuals? Why must you force others to comply--violently--to your ideals?
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