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    ChrisandJess's Avatar
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    Urologist is anti Primal. What shall I do?

    Primal Fuel
    So it's been quite awhile since I've posted on here, and I have no good reason why. Long story short, I get kidney stones. A lot. In the past 9 years I've had roughly 13 stones, the last being 1.2cm and needing laser lithotripsy to remove.

    After my surgery, the doctor told me to eat as little animal protein as possible, especially red meat. He also recommended drinking enough fluids to produce 2 liters of urine per day, 8 oz of those fluids being lemonade or some other fruit juice with citric acid. My primary care doctor also said to drink enough fluids to produce 2 liters of urine daily as well, stating that several studies showed this was the single most effective way to reduce the chances of a future stone.

    My question is how do I convert back to primal when everything my doctors are telling me goes against what Mark encourages. My wife and I never felt better than while we were primal(although it was only about a month), but my stones generally take at least 6 months to pass once the first pain is felt, and that is not something I want to deal with if I can avoid it.

    I know this topic has been raised in the past, but none of the threads I found specifically had doctors orders to avoid red meat and drink lemonade.

    Any help would be tremendously appreciated.

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    Knifegill's Avatar
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    I thought just eating enough alkaline foods was generally enough to prevent the most common stones. But, what are your stones made of? Oxalate stones will need different efforts than calcium - or whatever the common ones are. But, keep digging online. There are a lot of dietary approaches that have been successful for many people!


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    Sorry I forgot to add that my stones are made of calcium oxalate.

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    Isn't that associated with green tea and leafy green consumption?


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    It depends on who you ask, really. There is so much conflicting information available anymore that I don't even know where to look. I never drank green tea before my stones became apparent, and for the most part stayed away from spinach as well. I do know that they are genetic and everyone in my mom's family gets them more frequently than I do.

    I just wonder how much of my doctor's advice is cultural. He is Indian and I know that some of the hold the cow sacred. When I asked him about other animal proteins like turkey, fish, chicken, etc. he said that he doesn't see a problem with those.

    He did advise me to avoid spinach and tea, but said coffee was OK.

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    I have had a couple of kidney stones. My understanding is that the evidence is quite inconclusive for any dietary restrictions being useful. My nephrologist told me she doesn't find any diets help her patients. I have seen pretty good data that ketosis can cause kidney stones. Those diets were not primal though. But kids on a ketotic diet do get a lot of stones. So perhaps stay out of ketosis and stay hydrated.

    I have read some theories the vitamin K2 might help so I take that with my vitamin D3.

    Also, have you had your calcium levels and parathyroid levels checked?
    Using low lectin/nightshade free primal to control autoimmune arthritis. (And lost 50 lbs along the way )

    http://www.krispin.com/lectin.html

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    Don't discuss your diet with your doctor. If he insists on it, then lie. It's not that hard . Most doctors haven't done a great deal of nutrition training, and those that HAVE have been trained using CW, which is clearly not primal. I honestly think your best bet is to just tell them you're doing all the stuff that they say you have to do, regardless of whether or not you are.

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    ChrisandJess's Avatar
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    I'm not entirely sure what all he checked, but I had to do a 24 hour urine collection to check protein and calcium levels and everything came back normal. I haven't had any pain or signs of a stone since my surgery, so I am almost wondering if I just had one giant stone and small pieces just kept breaking off. My wife and I are preparing(biggest reason we failed last time was lack of preparation/planning) for primal again and I will give it some time to see if any stones develop. I have an ultrasound/follow up in October, which will give me an idea where I am starting.

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    Lewis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisandJess View Post
    I just wonder how much of my doctor's advice is cultural. He is Indian and I know that some of the hold the cow sacred. When I asked him about other animal proteins like turkey, fish, chicken, etc. he said that he doesn't see a problem with those.
    It seems to me unlikely that he's trying to steer you away from beef on that reason, and you did say he said "red meat" which is a more general term.

    I'm not going to tell you to disregard a doctor's advice, and I should think few people here would. But I think a doctor owes it to his patient to explain to him what his reasoning is. What does he say if you ask him why eating read meat causes calcium oxalate kidney stones? If he can't give you a reasonable explanation I would wonder why he's offering that advice. If it's just general dietary advice why's it got entangled with advice on this specific problem?

    If you're really not satisfied that he's giving you the right advice, I'd get an opinion from another doctor.

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    I'm Primal and I also follow Low Oxalate dietary rules due to the fact that I'm on two medications that are known to cause CalOx stones. One of them is basically a guarantee for them, but I haven't had one yet... and I aim to keep it that way if possible.

    Yes coffee is fine.
    Tea however is not.

    According to Low Oxalate rules there is no issue with beef or red meats.
    Many of the high ox foods are already prohibited just by being 'primal' such as "whole grains and legumes".
    But doing a full on Low Oxalate diet is pretty darn restrictive where vegetables and starches are concerned.
    If you are interested I can give you more information.
    For ME, it isn't hard... I have had some very serious medical conditions (that are now healing) over the past year+, so I'm doing this because it's simply what I think is best for my body.
    But I first transitioned to Primal, very low sodium/no added salt, and then Low Oxalates.
    It seemed overwhelming when I was reading all of the things I "couldn't" eat, VERY long lists,... then I just did it, and it was much easier than I thought.

    I drink from 1-2 gallons of water a day, with a dash of key lime juice(lemon is preferred, I just like the taste of lime better) in every glass daily to keep things flowing clear.
    I take potassium citrate morning and evening.
    (My meds dehydrate me so that is one reason for the huge amount of water and the potassium... I get depleted easily and get potassium depletion symptoms.)
    I occasionally add a glass of orange juice because it's supposed to be good. But I'm not fond of the sweetness.
    I take a small dose of Magnesium citrate in the evening...
    I take about 500mg of calcium citrate before consuming a meal that is higher in oxalates than I'd like. Cal citrate taken prior to a meal that has a bit higher oxalates is supposed to help bind them and make them unavailable in the gut. *shrug* It's worth a try.
    I take a B6 supplement as that has been shown to reduce the instance of kidney stones, 50mg/day in a divided dose.

    (Notice that my supplements almost all come in 'citrate' form... yep... keeping those kidneys clean as much as possible.)
    I drink one coffee a day, in the morning, followed by lots of water. The caffeine triggers the kidneys to get to work... rinse, rinse, rinse.
    I don't eat until dinner.
    So all day... just water with lime.
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
    ~Friedrich Nietzsche
    And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.


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