Should Women FAST? page 9

[Omni]

Another thing I was wondering is fasting in relation to Menstral cycle, Nutrient demands are greatest during the lining building phase and peak just prior to ovulation, then if fertilization does not occur some of the lining is reabsorbed and the rest is shed.
Would women fare better if only fasting in the latter half of their cycle???
In our journey I found if I fed my partner a good dose of steak (protein & Iron) just before ovulation, her mid cycle "I am ready to kill something" behaviour was much improved.
Maybe the timing of fasting for pre menopausal women is more important to minimise some of the negative impacts?

[BestBetter]

When following an IF regimen you need to make it low glycemic and high in protein and fiber. Eat whole foods, possibly high in dairy and whey protein

Do you ladies agree with this????????????

Most of what was in that excerpt made sense and i agree with it. This is the only part I disagree with.

I think advising a diet high in fiber (specifically non-soluble fiber) is a recipe for digestive disaster in the long run.

And I'm not sure why a diet of whole foods would need to include whey protein or be high in dairy - I know some folks are into dairy, but that's a food group that commonly causes all sorts of issues, from digestive upset to acne to autoimmune attacks and bloating, especially when eating A LOT of it. I tend to think of dairy as something a lucky few can get away with.

[Louisa655]

I see we are getting mixed responses regarding women and fasting. Ori Hofmekler wrote this:

Female-specific responses to fasting raise an interesting scientific phenomenon. Researchers have been finding evidence that there is indeed a tradeoff between virility and longevity of organisms.
Apparently the same genes that promote human longevity may trigger biological mechanisms that suppress female reproductive capacity.

Hence, fasting and intense exercise protocols, known to promote longevity, also lower estrogen level and thereby modulate body composition and suppress female reproductive capacity. This is apparently part of an early adaption mechanism to primordial conditions of food scarcity and hardship, which requires increased strength and durability on the account of reproductivity. Hence, hard conditions are not biologically suitable times for pregnancy and child bearing.

I discussed this issue with Dr. Marc Mattson, Prof. of Neurosciences at Johns Hopkins University a few years ago. According to Mattson, women who fast or are on calorie restriction, have the tendency to get leaner, become increasingly addicted to physical exercise, and lose their menstrual cycle. Nonetheless, they seem to gain substantial improvements in all main biological markers of longevity – i.e. increased insulin sensitivity, increased GH secretion, improved lipid profile, improved anti-inflammatory cytokine profile, improved cognitive function, etc.

Note that fasting triggers the longevity gene SIRT-1, which regulates mitochondrial energy production along with the gene transcription promoter protein PGC-1α, which increases mitochondrial biogenesis and density in the muscle. Yes, mitochondrial energy utilization efficiency is a key to longevity.

One of the most notable benefits of fasting is its profound anti-inflammatory effect. Fasting increases production of anti-inflammatory cytokines while suppressing pro-inflammatory cytokines such as TNF-α and IL-6. Note that pro-inflammatory cytokines produced by fat cells (adipokines) are associated with insulin resistance, obesity, metabolic syndrome, and a shorter life span; whereas anti-inflammatory cytokines, such as adiponectin and IL-15, are associated with improved insulin sensitivity, increased thermogenesis, decreased fat storage, increased muscle regeneration and increased life span.

Finally, in view of the current epidemic of excess estrogen in females and males, caused by estrogenic chemicals and foods (such as petrochemicals and soy), fasting and IF can be used as an effective therapeutic strategy to balance estrogen and prevent related metabolic disorders and cancer.


Summary Points

Don't blindly trust human studies on IF as some of these show misleading results due to major design flaws.

Don't even think about intermittent fasting if you eat the typical American portions of high glycemic junk food.

When following an IF regimen you need to make it low glycemic and high in protein and fiber. Eat whole foods, possibly high in dairy and whey protein, along with nutrient dense antioxidant foods.

Adjust your fuel food according to your specific condition and type of training.

Your intermittent fasting regimen must make sense. The length of your fasting intervals should be optimized to yield maximum biological impact. What really counts is your net fasting time (period between meals minus digestion time.) It takes your body roughly 5-8 hours to fully digest a meal and shift into a fasting mode. Three to six hours of "not eating" between meals will not be sufficient to put your body in a fasting mode and therefore will fail to get you the results you're looking for.

The female-specific response to fasting or intermittent fasting is no different than the female response to intense exercise. There is indeed a tradeoff between benefits and side effects. And the question "should women fast" raises the same issues as the question "should women exercise intensely".


Do you ladies agree with this????????????

There seems to be some good works, ideas, thoughts, studies referred to in this post, and I'd like to see the same supported through academic reference.

[Betorq]

Most of what was in that excerpt made sense and i agree with it. This is the only part I disagree with.I think advising a diet high in fiber (specifically non-soluble fiber) is a recipe for digestive disaster in the long run.
And I'm not sure why a diet of whole foods would need to include whey protein or be high in dairy - I know some folks are into dairy, but that's a food group that commonly causes all sorts of issues, from digestive upset to acne to autoimmune attacks and bloating, especially when eating A LOT of it. I tend to think of dairy as something a lucky few can get away with.

She did say "possibly" though it wasn't heavily emphasized in her discourse. I tolerate dairy well. And I'm Jewish. Many Jews, Africans & Asians do NOT tolerate dairy very well, but I got lucky (again.) I do very well with whey too, no insulin or blood sugar issues like I've heard others gripe/report about. Of course, I don't overdo dairy, in fact I don't even do it daily. I like to mix up my morning smoothie ingredients. Whey, hemp, chia, yogurt, kefir, eggs, avocados all can find their way into my post-workout morning smoothies. Then I also sometimes have a breakfast too! Skipping lunch lately & having a decent dinner (tonite's dinner was a feast, it unapologetically happens...)

IFing 48hrs once every week. Leaner & stonger, as Divas says, serious anti-inflamatory effects through regular autophagy combined with low to moderate carb, high fat, mod protein. Loads of water. O woe

[Paleobird]

I discussed this issue with Dr. Marc Mattson, Prof. of Neurosciences at Johns Hopkins University a few years ago. According to Mattson, women who fast or are on calorie restriction, have the tendency to get leaner, become increasingly addicted to physical exercise, and lose their menstrual cycle. Nonetheless, they seem to gain substantial improvements in all main biological markers of longevity – i.e. increased insulin sensitivity, increased GH secretion, improved lipid profile, improved anti-inflammatory cytokine profile, improved cognitive function, etc.

A tendency? Could you be a little more vague please? Obviously, not all women who fast or exercise lose their cycles. And who says that every woman of childbearing years cares about childbearing? And what about those of us who don't have cycles to lose? I mean that just because some individuals take caloric restriction or exercise to an unhealthy extreme doesn't make these things unhealthy across the board.

No, that's a falacy. Those are two separate, distinctive questions every female needs to find answers for herself. Intense exercise is a short-term exposure to a stressor - a person should NOT be able to keep up intensity to >20 min if it is actually intense. Fasting is 14-24+ hour in length stressor.

I enjoy intense exercise. I don't enjoy fasting.
Intense exercise does not interfere with my work or life. Fasting interferes with my work and life.
Intense exercise gives me visible results (improvement in muscular mass). Fasting gives me no results.

I am the opposite. I enjoy fasting but I really don't enjoy intense exercise like weightlifting, although I do enjoy long hikes. But I agree with Leida the two are totally separate issues.

Looking at things from an evolutionary perspectives you need to consider the conditions that would have prevailed:
1/ Did we miss out on meals regularly - Yes
2/ Did we have fixed timing of 3 meal's day - No
3/ Were there regular days of no food - Yes
4/ Did we experience extended periods of intense food competition - Yes
Did this stop us reproducing, obviously not as we are here, food restriction has to be pretty intense and longer term to affect fertility cycles, this may well happen with Eating disorders or with the persistant calorie restriction in pursuit of longevity but I do not think it would happen to a healthy individual on a 16/8 or 20/4 IF protocol even including a 40hr fast once a week, provided the overall calorie intake is sufficient.
Should women do intense exercise? Well did they during our evolution or were they just sitting ducks when a hungry lion came around the corner, they did what they had to do, they did long distance treks, weight training and sprint intervals in the course of any normal day.
That doesn't mean that fasting is easy, we are geared to get enough food, so once our bodies say get food then this will affect our behaviours, some more so than others, this may just be due to variation of individual responses or may be driven stronger because of underlying nutrient deficiencies.
There are a number of physiological responses that indicate periodic food restriction can be beneficial which go from dental health, through gut health, organ health and immune response, we evolved to seek food, but we also evolved to be hungry for extended periods. There is a time for cleaning up and repair and there is a time for nutrition and body building, if our GI tract is constantly full then this takes a significant amount of energy away from other body processes.
I think IF is beneficial for everyone, but everyone needs to find a method that works well for them, it may be the daily IF or it may be the every second day calorie restriction, or once a week or whatever format. The biggest hurdle that we have to deal with is our brains, we are geared to get food and fill up, in the natural world there was a balance and we had periods of no food because the hunt failed or competition was too intense etc., but these days we have to re-create this situation artificially. This creates the Eating Disorder trap, when does healthy IF crossover to becoming obsessive behaviour? There is a basic instinct we have to seek out high energy foods and conserve energy inbetween and we have brought those into our homes, sometimes less than 10 steps apart, we do not have a driver to exercise and be hungry, those were just par for the course in our natural world so we need to apply a conscious effort to keep the balance.
There definately seems to be a difference in the way men and women respond to IF, but just like exercise, weight loss & body image neither sex is immune to the psychological risk of going too far, mirrors & scales may have a lot to answer for and that may well be a guide, I have found myself using these more often and wondered when the switch flips from being conscious and becoming obsessive?

Well said.

I think advising a diet high in fiber (specifically non-soluble fiber) is a recipe for digestive disaster in the long run.

And I'm not sure why a diet of whole foods would need to include whey protein or be high in dairy - I know some folks are into dairy, but that's a food group that commonly causes all sorts of issues, from digestive upset to acne to autoimmune attacks and bloating, especially when eating A LOT of it. I tend to think of dairy as something a lucky few can get away with.

I agree about the fiber but not about the dairy. I think dairy is an N=1 self experiment. It works for some not for others. Personally, I don't like whey but I do like the higher fat dairy options as a part of my ketosis diet. I don't think the amount of fiber is really even relevant to the fasting question.

[Health Divas]

Looking at things from an evolutionary perspectives you need to consider the conditions that would have prevailed:
1/ Did we miss out on meals regularly - Yes
2/ Did we have fixed timing of 3 meal's day - No
3/ Were there regular days of no food - Yes
4/ Did we experience extended periods of intense food competition - Yes
Did this stop us reproducing, obviously not as we are here, food restriction has to be pretty intense and longer term to affect fertility cycles, this may well happen with Eating disorders or with the persistant calorie restriction in pursuit of longevity but I do not think it would happen to a healthy individual on a 16/8 or 20/4 IF protocol even including a 40hr fast once a week, provided the overall calorie intake is sufficient.
Should women do intense exercise? Well did they during our evolution or were they just sitting ducks when a hungry lion came around the corner, they did what they had to do, they did long distance treks, weight training and sprint intervals in the course of any normal day.
That doesn't mean that fasting is easy, we are geared to get enough food, so once our bodies say get food then this will affect our behaviours, some more so than others, this may just be due to variation of individual responses or may be driven stronger because of underlying nutrient deficiencies.
There are a number of physiological responses that indicate periodic food restriction can be beneficial which go from dental health, through gut health, organ health and immune response, we evolved to seek food, but we also evolved to be hungry for extended periods. There is a time for cleaning up and repair and there is a time for nutrition and body building, if our GI tract is constantly full then this takes a significant amount of energy away from other body processes.
I think IF is beneficial for everyone, but everyone needs to find a method that works well for them, it may be the daily IF or it may be the every second day calorie restriction, or once a week or whatever format. The biggest hurdle that we have to deal with is our brains, we are geared to get food and fill up, in the natural world there was a balance and we had periods of no food because the hunt failed or competition was too intense etc., but these days we have to re-create this situation artificially. This creates the Eating Disorder trap, when does healthy IF crossover to becoming obsessive behaviour? There is a basic instinct we have to seek out high energy foods and conserve energy inbetween and we have brought those into our homes, sometimes less than 10 steps apart, we do not have a driver to exercise and be hungry, those were just par for the course in our natural world so we need to apply a conscious effort to keep the balance.
There definately seems to be a difference in the way men and women respond to IF, but just like exercise, weight loss & body image neither sex is immune to the psychological risk of going too far, mirrors & scales may have a lot to answer for and that may well be a guide, I have found myself using these more often and wondered when the switch flips from being conscious and becoming obsessive?

Omni - one of my favourite posts so far! I like your distinction between 1) genetically/evolutionary able to tolerate long periods without food and 2) each person's own individuality today - physiological, psychological, emotional, goals, trial and error (mistakes), daily life... etc.

[Health Divas]

There seems to be some good works, ideas, thoughts, studies referred to in this post, and I'd like to see the same supported through academic reference.

Hi Louisa - Thanks for your question. Please find the references here (page bottom): Health Divas: The Power of Intermittent Fasting

[Health Divas]

Another thing I was wondering is fasting in relation to Menstral cycle, Nutrient demands are greatest during the lining building phase and peak just prior to ovulation, then if fertilization does not occur some of the lining is reabsorbed and the rest is shed.
Would women fare better if only fasting in the latter half of their cycle???
In our journey I found if I fed my partner a good dose of steak (protein & Iron) just before ovulation, her mid cycle "I am ready to kill something" behaviour was much improved.
Maybe the timing of fasting for pre menopausal women is more important to minimise some of the negative impacts?

Omni - I think most studies lead to your conclusion. "Timing" seems to be the key to getting it right.

Still, I would like to see more studies out there involving WOMEN.

[zoebird]

I think I already talked about my cycle, and that I actually eat about 200 more calories per day between ovulation and menses, and if this is rich in iron 200 calories, then I tend to also have none of those pesky PMS symptoms. I also IF then -- following basically the 16/8 IF protocol.

[Omni]

Omni - I think most studies lead to your conclusion. "Timing" seems to be the key to getting it right.

Still, I would like to see more studies out there involving WOMEN.

Would be good to see some more studies, but these would have to be done on healthy low/moderate carb Women as you want to eliminate the Insulin factor to determine if there are any other impediments to fasting for Women.

I think I already talked about my cycle, and that I actually eat about 200 more calories per day between ovulation and menses, and if this is rich in iron 200 calories, then I tend to also have none of those pesky PMS symptoms. I also IF then -- following basically the 16/8 IF protocol.

I didn't see if you posted it earlier, but good confirmation, with the extra 200 calories, is that intentional or just works out that way naturally?
And from that I asume your IF during this phase is symptom free apart from a little bit of hunger, i.e. you do not get weak, irritable etc.

I have looked at some of the cyclic PMS stuff and think that a lot of it comes down to nutrition, not that it goes away altogether, the symptoms should be enough that you are aware of the cycle points, but not so much that they become completely debilitating, that just wouldn't make evolutionary sense.

On a side note, just read somewhere the other day that along with getting shorter our Pelvis also has narrowed front to back since we left the HG lifestyle 10,000 ago and this is one of the reasons for so much difficulty in childbirth for modern women.