Should Women FAST? page 4

[oxide]

Is it just me or does Ms. health diva sound like stealth spam?

[Omni]

Why do you keep making up such dramatic silliness?......
Instead of queens of trauma you should call yourselves the queens of drama.

Uncalled for, the rest of your post was good discussion, but this twisting of the knife just sends threads into a downhill slide.

I think YMMV when it comes to fasting -- what works for some might be disastrous for others. Here's a good article on negative impacts of fasting for women: How Intermittent Fasting Saved Me While Slowly Killing me | Civilized Caveman Cooking Creations

I read the blog, really nothing negative about IF, it's more a case of using IF to create a bad relationship with food, she said it right at the start about becoming obsessed with body image, that was her problem not IF.

+1
Intermittent fasting actually caused a shit ton of health problems for me, so while I think the scientific research behind it is pretty cool, and I really wanted to buy into it, it was a disaster for me.

Eating one huge meal per day triggered some of the most painful IBS flares of my life. Now, as a result, I have to keep my meals small, and space them out throughout the day.

While not due solely to IF, while IFing, my fatigue got substantially worse (though likely this was also largely due to being lowish carb for too many months). I discovered that on fasting days, my body responded to the extreme calorie reduction by basically shutting down operations. I would get cold in my extremities, and in my core, I would move around less and less until basically I couldn't even get myself off the couch.

IFing destroyed my sleep. I realized that my 40-48 hour fasts basically guaranteed to the worst sleep of my life.
I know that fasting does wonders for some folks, but for me it's one of the worst things I ever inflicted on myself.

This is a great point, If you already have significant metabolic and physiological problems, then IF may not be appropriate for you.

For me it depends on my weight. If I am above 123-125 lbs, I fast easily and naturally till 10 am- lunch daily. The heavier I am, the longer I can go without food without it bothering me, up to maybe 22 hours. I have done only one 24+ hours fast after the age of 23, and it was not something I would do again.

When I weigh less, fasting becomes problematic, so I have breakfast & eat more often, maybe going 4-5 hours between meals, sometimes less, sometimes more.

All and all, I just go by how I feel, and try to stop and analyse if I want food emotionally or physically before I eat.

Great description, a healthy balanced approach, particularly the corrolation you have seen between current weight and IF, to me that indicates that your body is in a good place, when tank is full then you can go flat out "Pedal to the Metal" without top ups, but when reserves are low it is telling you that it is a bad idea to stretch meal times out.

@Paleobird - fantastic to hear about your own experience! I am curious, do you experience true "sex drive" on your fasting days? Or could it be that you feel lighter, sexier, joyful, enlightened?

Feeling lighter, "floaty", sexier, joyful and enlightened is something that most people will experience when undergoing long periods without food.

I call it "The Magic of Fasting", the surge of endorphins - the "love" chemicals thousands of times stronger than heroin. The reason for this high we feel is that "traumas" of any kind (including fasting) trigger an automatic burst of soothing endorphins. Endorphins are meant to silence pain. You may know of people who felt no pain for hours after a terrible physical injury. But endorphins can do more than kill pain. They provide the sensation of pleasure too. Euphoria, joy, the "runners' high" (when runners have run past their pain threshold). So effectively, I like to call this the "fasters' high". At some point during our fast, we experience this surge of endorphins... and an even higher dose if we exercise on a fasted state.

Some people find so much pleasure in this "fasting high" that love fasting regularly. In some cases this may actually motivate you to continue fasting for a longer period of time: yeah, bring on the next endorphin dose!

The other extreme of this is an anorexic diva, unfortunately seriously addicted to this regular endorphin surge as a result of her severe calorie-restriction.

Anyway, back to the point, even though most fasting divas will feel lighter and more joyful, that may not necessarily translate into "wanting" it... However, each one of us is different, thank goodness for that! And there is so much we are yet to learn about fasting. Stories like yours are what we want to hear in our Health Divas Forum. Do join us Peleobird.

P.S. You don't look post-menopausal, gorgeous pic!

Love,
Health Divas

All that talk of floaty, sexy, light etc. etc. to me is exactly what people should be looking for as warning signs that maybe doing IF right now is not such a good idea. Once you start to create attachments to those feelings and the feeling becomes the driver of your behaviour, then this is basically an eating disorder, as the responses moderate, as they do with all drugs, you just need to keep going harder to get the same buzz. You should not be experiencing extreme changes in sensations like that, when fasting there should be a slightly heightened awareness, this is the Hunter Gatherer signal to go get food, once it gets to the euphoria or deprevation state, then this is the starvation signal and you have gone too far for your body equilibrium, whether you are overweight or not is irrelevant, it is a sign that there are other more important balances to correct before you go hard core IF.
I do have to agree with PB though, maybe just tone down the whole "Peace, Love and Goodwill" thing, it will make your information a lot easier to digest.

Is it just me or does Ms. health diva sound like stealth spam?

Possibly so, but atleast it is a good cause.

I think a lot of people miss the point of IF entirely, they dive in with all the determination of a STD CW dieting program, force some reluctant changes in their bodies, then finally when their body really arc's up and refuses to play ball, they declare IF as a dismal failure.
Most of the good information I have read about IF consistently warn against trying to force IF, it should be a natural progression of moving into the Paleo/Primal lifestyle, basically simulating life without a fridge & pantry. There are numerous benefits to be gained from IF, but it can't be forced, it requires one to get in tune with their body first, so it should be a gradual process, some can get there in weeks others may take years or it may not even be appropriate for them. Women generally seem to have more success with the shorter daily fast and I think this is an inherrent response to the fact they they need to maintain appropriate body weight for pregnancy and hence will down regulate metabolism much quicker than men who on the other hand need to maintain full metabolic capabilities so that they can perform their full duties as protector/hunter etc., this is at the expense of fat reserves, they only need enough energy to copulate so have no underlying driver to hold onto fat.
Anyway, that's my take on it at this stage, but still looking for more info.

[Drumroll]

I firmly believe that every person is individual and will react differently to fasting. There are certain female members on this board that swear by fasting and those that do horribly on one.

I am not a woman and thus, cannot comment based on any personal experience, but if you are a woman and have never tried fasting, I recommend trying it out a few times and seeing how you feel. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't, but one never knows without trying, right? It's why you're doing the primal blueprint, because you decided to try a new thing!

The worst that can happen is that you don't do well and decide not to continue it. You've not lost much by trying!

[Paleobird]

Uncalled for, the rest of your post was good discussion, but this twisting of the knife just sends threads into a downhill slide.

Oh, lighten up, Omni. It was light hearted banter complete complete with emoticon.

I read the blog, really nothing negative about IF, it's more a case of using IF to create a bad relationship with food, she said it right at the start about becoming obsessed with body image, that was her problem not IF.

Exactly.

This is a great point, If you already have significant metabolic and physiological problems, then IF may not be appropriate for you.

Good point. I also would caution against it if you are just now transitioning from SAD to Primal eating.

All that talk of floaty, sexy, light etc. etc. to me is exactly what people should be looking for as warning signs that maybe doing IF right now is not such a good idea. Once you start to create attachments to those feelings and the feeling becomes the driver of your behaviour, then this is basically an eating disorder, as the responses moderate, as they do with all drugs, you just need to keep going harder to get the same buzz. You should not be experiencing extreme changes in sensations like that, when fasting there should be a slightly heightened awareness, this is the Hunter Gatherer signal to go get food, once it gets to the euphoria or deprevation state, then this is the starvation signal and you have gone too far for your body equilibrium, whether you are overweight or not is irrelevant, it is a sign that there are other more important balances to correct before you go hard core IF.
I do have to agree with PB though, maybe just tone down the whole "Peace, Love and Goodwill" thing, it will make your information a lot easier to digest.

This is what I was referring to as over dramatization. And I agree about the above sounding like more of an emotional and unhealthy relationship with food.

Most of the good information I have read about IF consistently warn against trying to force IF, it should be a natural progression of moving into the Paleo/Primal lifestyle, basically simulating life without a fridge & pantry. There are numerous benefits to be gained from IF, but it can't be forced, it requires one to get in tune with their body first, so it should be a gradual process, some can get there in weeks others may take years or it may not even be appropriate for them. Women generally seem to have more success with the shorter daily fast and I think this is an inherrent response to the fact they they need to maintain appropriate body weight for pregnancy and hence will down regulate metabolism much quicker than men who on the other hand need to maintain full metabolic capabilities so that they can perform their full duties as protector/hunter etc., this is at the expense of fat reserves, they only need enough energy to copulate so have no underlying driver to hold onto fat.

I totally agree about not forcing it. It is a natural progression. I just don't want women to get an automatically negative view of fasting from discussions such as this. For one thing, not all women are of child bearing years. It would be interesting to see some data comparing our physiological responses to it compared with younger women. My N=1 is that it is much easier for me now than in earlier years but that is confounded by my change to Primal.

[zoebird]

I would say that, for me, it would be *exceedingly difficult* to fast closer to menses (ovulation to menses or during the luteal phase of my cycle) than it is during the estrogen phase at the start of the cycle (menses to ovulation).

Typically, we can now tell that menses is on the way because I am hungrier. I have no other PMS symptoms at this point, which is quite nice (though honestly, I had very few before, I no longer bloat, don't have cramps, etc. It's nice.).

I find that during this second half of my cycle, I tend to eat 2 meals plus snack or 3 meals -- which ups my calories by about 200 or so, such that I eat between around 1700 (though in the past it's been 1400-1600, and also 1600-1800. . . during different phases of my two years primal), where as during the first phase of the cycle, I eat around 1500.

Fasting in the first phase is easy with easy overnight IF from 8:30 pm until about 10:30/11 am or so -- 14 hrs fasting -- and then again at 7, which is an 8 hr fast in between. Fasting in the second phase is much harder. I tend to wake up hungry but have to wait at least an hour to eat so I don't get at tummy ache. So, I'm usually eating at 9, and then again around 2, and then again at 7.

At some point during menses or a bit later in the first phase of the cycle, I'm likely to do my longer fast where I just want to be in bed all day and not eat and have a bit of peace and quiet to myself. I think this is just a vestige from childhood, when I fasted then, and of course, there are random days that usually tend to be in the early part of the cycle where I just fast.

SO, that's my experience being of "child bearing age."

[Health Divas]

@ Paleobird - I know you don't like the words stress and trauma, but those are the terms we use in biochemistry. They are a simplified way to describe the cycle of hormones cortisol, glucagon and adrenaline (and other catecholamines).

Also, feelings of euphoria coincide with ketosis but these feelings are NOT caused by ketone bodies. Again, I won't get into a biochemistry class since - you may have another panic reaction with the terminology used by the scientific community LoL

Love,
Health Divas

[Health Divas]

This discussion is thought provoking and no, no stealth spam here.

Omni - You are correct. In treatment centres for anorexics and bulimics an addiction to the endorphine high is one of the first issues they would try to help you tackle. The Diet Cure, written by a nutritional therapist that treated thousands of these types of patients describes it wonderfully. A must read.

Best wishes,
Health Divas

[Paleobird]

@ Paleobird - I know you don't like the words stress and trauma, but those are the terms we use in biochemistry. They are a simplified way to describe the cycle of hormones cortisol, glucagon and adrenaline (and other catecholamines).

Also, feelings of euphoria coincide with ketosis but these feelings are NOT caused by ketone bodies. Again, I won't get into a biochemistry class since - you may have another panic reaction with the terminology used by the scientific community LoL

Love,
Health Divas

Dear Health Divas. Condescending much?

Feeling lighter, "floaty", sexier, joyful and enlightened is something that most people will experience when undergoing long periods without food.

I call it "The Magic of Fasting", the surge of endorphins - the "love" chemicals thousands of times stronger than heroin.

Anyway, back to the point, even though most fasting divas will feel lighter and more joyful

Yep, I can tell that your scientific community terminology is just too much for me.

Love, Hugs, and Snuggles,
Paleobird

[Betorq]

+1

Intermittent fasting actually caused a shit ton of health problems for me, so while I think the scientific research behind it is pretty cool, and I really wanted to buy into it, it was a disaster for me.

Eating one huge meal per day triggered some of the most painful IBS flares of my life. Now, as a result, I have to keep my meals small, and space them out throughout the day.

While not due solely to IF, while IFing, my fatigue got substantially worse (though likely this was also largely due to being lowish carb for too many months). I discovered that on fasting days, my body responded to the extreme calorie reduction by basically shutting down operations. I would get cold in my extremities, and in my core, I would move around less and less until basically I couldn't even get myself off the couch.

IFing destroyed my sleep. I realized that my 40-48 hour fasts basically guaranteed to the worst sleep of my life.
I know that fasting does wonders for some folks, but for me it's one of the worst things I ever inflicted on myself.

There is no one-best-thing for anyone, except maybe breathing & drinking water, eating some food, moving the body. Everything after those generally good habits, is up to each & every one of us to discover for ourselves. Sadly, sometimes that process of discovery is fraught with some pain & suffering. Sorry to hear of your troubles, BestBetter. Hope you are healing & feeling your best & ...better!

And this thread is so interesting & even entertaining, with all this back & forth energized banter . I have views & opinions about women & some experiences with women too. But I will not make much more comment, as I obviously am not qualified as a man to duke it out, much less even to enter into the ring here. So I will just follow, absorb & try to learn about the ladies from these exchanges on these & other lady-centric threads, from here on out.

[patski]

I do NOT recommend fasting for anyone with Adrenal Fatigue.

Unless you like being a cranky, weepy bitch.