Most informative, least biased article on pros & cons of Soy I've ever read page 3

[JamesS]

JamesS says,


WebMD says,
"Osteopenia refers to bone mineral density (BMD) that is lower than normal peak BMD but not low enough to be classified as osteoporosis. Bone mineral density is a measurement of the level of minerals in the bones, which shows how dense and strong they are. If your BMD is low compared to normal peak BMD, you are said to have osteopenia. Having osteopenia means there is a greater risk that, as time passes, you may develop BMD that is very low compared to normal, known as osteoporosis."

Web MD says the same thing as my oncologist who also told me to give up soy. My osteopenia is now gone.

Both osteopenia and osteoporosis involve decreased bone density. But it occurs for completely different reasons. Just like in sugar diabetes type 1, type 2 and gestational diabetes all lead to an increase in blood glucose. But they all occur for different reasons.

Soy does not cause osteopenia, nor osteoporosis. In fact, the studies show just the opposite. But when people are told they have osteopenia or osteoporosis they tend to make changes in their diet and lifestyle to correct the problems. So they tend to do things like increase their mineral content, lower their phosphorus intake, increase their fiber intake, increase their exercise or other things to increase bone density. Those will make a difference unlike cutting out soy.

[sbhikes]

Swami is dumber than previously thought. Here was Swami's prediction:

"The Swamee says.... Before all is said and done.... SOMEBODY is going to jump on this thread and "remind" us all of the estrogen blocking properties of phyto-estrogens in soy and the "high" glucose content of beef.... "

So where was any of that mentioned other than by Swami himself?

Oh, you'll get there soon enough. I have faith in you.

[onalark]

Marking this topic to come back and read later!

[Paleobird]

Both osteopenia and osteoporosis involve decreased bone density. But it occurs for completely different reasons. Just like in sugar diabetes type 1, type 2 and gestational diabetes all lead to an increase in blood glucose. But they all occur for different reasons.

Soy does not cause osteopenia, nor osteoporosis. In fact, the studies show just the opposite. But when people are told they have osteopenia or osteoporosis they tend to make changes in their diet and lifestyle to correct the problems. So they tend to do things like increase their mineral content, lower their phosphorus intake, increase their fiber intake, increase their exercise or other things to increase bone density. Those will make a difference unlike cutting out soy.

I never said soy caused osteopenia or osteoporosis. (It may or may not, I honestly don't know. I've read things on both sides of that issue.) I said my oncologist told me to stop eating soy. He did that because of the estrogen factor.

You made blatantly incorrect statements about the nature of more than one bone disease. Until you get basic medical terminology straight, I think I'll listen to my oncologist rather than an herbal formulator.

[zoebird]

I first heard about this issue through the WAPF. I was vegan at the time, and consumed soy milk. Not a lot of it, but at least a daily cup (in some form of cooking usually, I don't just drink milks and stuff), and then would have tofu or tempeh a few times w week. Honestly, it wasn't *a lot* of soy.

But, at the time, I was also having hypothyroidal symptoms. I'd become vegan for a lot of reasons, and one of the side benefits is that I stopped over-producing prolactin, which I think was caused by excessive consumption of processed foods. I'd stopped processed foods when I became vegan (though -- soy milk, etc is processed, but it was one of the few processed things in my diet. the occasional can of soup was in there too, and wraps/tortillas), and within a year, I had no more of the prolactin related symptoms.

After a couple of years vegan, all was fine and dandy, but I learned how to chart my cycle, and I noticed that my cycle demonstrated that I was mildly hypothyroidal. It never came up in any of the tests that I'd had done at the GP -- always in normal ranges. But the low body temps, a bit of added weight that was tough to loose, the broken luteal phase in my cycle. . . it just showed some pretty clear-cut signs.

I read the WAPF information around the same time (that's when DH transitioned to WAPF -- which was somewhere around 2000/01, I think), and I thought that I might just go soy-free and give it a try. I was still vegan, and honestly, was only having a little bit of soy, so it was easy enough to replace it. I was about 2/3 raw anyway, so it wasn't at all a difficulty.

What I noticed is that with the combination of cold rinse showers (something I'd already been doing to stimulate thyroid) PLUS cutting soy completely, my cycle healed up really nicely. I'd started to have text-book cycles and was still slightly under normal temperatures, but not as far below in my cycle as I had been before.

So, that healed me up nicely as well.

What ultimately then took me on the journey away from veganism was hypo-cholesterolemia: I added back in eggs, and then some dairy because raw dairy didn't seem to bother me. The dairy was minimal -- usually butter for the eggs to be honest -- and my diet was still mostly vegetables and mostly raw (i didn't eat raw eggs!).

When we moved here, I removed grains from the diet, and added back some meat. I still don't eat much of it, honestly, and I will have entirely vegetarian days (eggs, veggies, nuts/seeds). I do eat a fair amount of bone broth -- I still love making soups. I mostly make vegetable soups but with bone broth. It's quite good.

[cori93437]

Too bad the White Elephant in the article barely garnered a passing mention- GMO!

Old fashioned fermented, organic, non-GMO... fine.

Anything else, no way!
There are MUCH better foods to eat...

[BONZ]

Oh, you'll get there soon enough. I have faith in you.

I'm glad somebody else is having as much fun with this as I am.....

[JamesS]

I never said soy caused osteopenia or osteoporosis. (It may or may not, I honestly don't know. I've read things on both sides of that issue.) I said my oncologist told me to stop eating soy. He did that because of the estrogen factor.

Your oncologist clearly has no idea what he is talking about. But that is a common misconception among many oncologists because they don't take the time to research the facts.

You made blatantly incorrect statements about the nature of more than one bone disease. Until you get basic medical terminology straight, I think I'll listen to my oncologist rather than an herbal formulator.

I did not make a mistake on either. Just because you, like your oncologists, are too lazy to research beyond what you want to hear does not make me wrong. Before I started writing my book on cancer I was working on a book on osteoporosis, osteomalacia and osteoarthritis, which is also highly referenced from medical journals. Maybe you should try actually researching some time and you might actually get something correct for once Paleobird. For example, look what took less than 10 seconds to find:

http://smj.sma.org.sg/1803/1803smj6.pdf

SENILE OSTEOPOROSIS AND
COLLAGEN LOSS IN SKIN

"Like bone, the primary structural protein of skin is collagen. it has been suggested that “studies of the absolute collagen content of skin may help to clarify our views on collagenolytic diseases such as osteoporosis"

So what does "collagenolytic" mean Paleobird? Ah, that's right, it means destruction of collagen. So please explain to everyone here how you think I was wrong about osteopenia and osteoporosis and please back up your statement with some type of real proof this time.

And what else did I find in another 30 seconds? A book discussing osteoporosis written by a medical doctor:

Diseases and Disorders - Victoria J. Fraser, M.d. - Google Books

And what does it CLEARLY say on page 655 about osteoporosis?:

"Osteoporosis is a decrease in the density of bone, as a result of the loss of collagen, and thus of calcium."

Gee, where did we all here that fact recently? Ah, that's right I had just pointed out that fact. But according to you I am wrong. Thus according to you, you think you know more than the medical journals, the doctors and the people who actually have done the research.

So what are other doctors stating about osteoporosis? Well it looks like they are still saying the same thing I have been saying as well as the medical journals:

Keefe Clinic :: Knowledge Base

"From this we plainly see that osteoporosis is the loss of bone matrix (made up of collagen -- a protein), and actually osteomalacia is the loss of calcium. Picture it somewhat like making the floats seen in parades. The float has a structure of chicken wire that makes up the frame. Crepe paper is stuck to this. The chicken wire is like the collagen fibers. The crepe paper is like the calcium.

It is true that there is a loss of calcium in osteoporosis, however it is because there is no collagen for the calcium to stick to. Without the chicken wire there is nothing to stick the crepe paper to and it just blows away. The collagen makes up the "frame" that calcium sticks to. Without the collagen, the calcium just blows away. Adding calcium when there is no collagen is like making a float by adding crepe paper when there is no chicken wire to hold it in place. Collagen adds tensile strength and flexibility, calcium adds hardness.

FACT -- Osteoporosis is NOT the loss of calcium from the bones. This is a deception that has been foisted upon us. Many doctors and health care providers have been more educated by a TUMS commercial than by a science text book. "

I really don't know what your problem is Paleobird. You have been going around in different threads playing the same game of claiming I am wrong without providing any evidence to the contrary. Then I post the evidence proving what I said was correct in the first place every time. So what is your game? Is this your lazy way of doing research, goading people in to doing the research for you? Or do you just like making yourself look foolish over and over by claiming everyone else is wrong when they are not?

[JamesS]

I first heard about this issue through the WAPF. I was vegan at the time, and consumed soy milk. Not a lot of it, but at least a daily cup (in some form of cooking usually, I don't just drink milks and stuff), and then would have tofu or tempeh a few times w week. Honestly, it wasn't *a lot* of soy.

But, at the time, I was also having hypothyroidal symptoms. I'd become vegan for a lot of reasons, and one of the side benefits is that I stopped over-producing prolactin, which I think was caused by excessive consumption of processed foods. I'd stopped processed foods when I became vegan (though -- soy milk, etc is processed, but it was one of the few processed things in my diet. the occasional can of soup was in there too, and wraps/tortillas), and within a year, I had no more of the prolactin related symptoms.

After a couple of years vegan, all was fine and dandy, but I learned how to chart my cycle, and I noticed that my cycle demonstrated that I was mildly hypothyroidal. It never came up in any of the tests that I'd had done at the GP -- always in normal ranges. But the low body temps, a bit of added weight that was tough to loose, the broken luteal phase in my cycle. . . it just showed some pretty clear-cut signs.

I read the WAPF information around the same time (that's when DH transitioned to WAPF -- which was somewhere around 2000/01, I think), and I thought that I might just go soy-free and give it a try. I was still vegan, and honestly, was only having a little bit of soy, so it was easy enough to replace it. I was about 2/3 raw anyway, so it wasn't at all a difficulty.

What I noticed is that with the combination of cold rinse showers (something I'd already been doing to stimulate thyroid) PLUS cutting soy completely, my cycle healed up really nicely. I'd started to have text-book cycles and was still slightly under normal temperatures, but not as far below in my cycle as I had been before.

So, that healed me up nicely as well.

What ultimately then took me on the journey away from veganism was hypo-cholesterolemia: I added back in eggs, and then some dairy because raw dairy didn't seem to bother me. The dairy was minimal -- usually butter for the eggs to be honest -- and my diet was still mostly vegetables and mostly raw (i didn't eat raw eggs!).

When we moved here, I removed grains from the diet, and added back some meat. I still don't eat much of it, honestly, and I will have entirely vegetarian days (eggs, veggies, nuts/seeds). I do eat a fair amount of bone broth -- I still love making soups. I mostly make vegetable soups but with bone broth. It's quite good.

The WAPF is a complete joke. Their ridiculous claims have been discredited so many times. And now they have Mercola as a spokesperson who has also made numerous discredited claims. I have addressed the bogus claims made by both WAPF and Mercola in previous posts. Again, this is an example of why I don't follow propaganda sites like WAPF and rely on real sources of research such as Medline.

[BONZ]

Is it just me......? Argumentum verbosium comes to mind......

Anyway, we all know that soy increases estrogen levels right?

Hmmmmmmm...... 5...4...3...2...1...