Most informative, least biased article on pros & cons of Soy I've ever read page 2

[Betorq]

The Swamee says.... Before all is said and done.... SOMEBODY is going to jump on this thread and "remind" us all of the estrogen blocking properties of phyto-estrogens in soy and the "high" glucose content of beef.... You heard it here, folks! I'm now taking wagers at 2 to 1 odds.

You just did...

Betorq, thanks for this, I was also told that it is a calcium depleter unless eaten with the seaweed etc. My mum was drinking soy milk for the menopause and had huge problems with her teeth. There is a small mention of it The Dangers of Soy section but easy to miss considering the level of teeth health and osteoporosis generally. (eg menopausal women drinking soy milk to help with that but unknowingly contributing to osteoporosis which is a real problem for older women, fixing a small temporary problem only to create a larger problem).

I also loved the Harper article you posted on fasting. Keep them coming.

Soy helps some select people but hurts most if/when overconsumed or consumed in it's non fermented forms (which other than tempeh & natto is near to impossible to overconsume for many days in a row). Paleobird is convinced soy was the or one of the major drivers of her breast cancer. I believe it.

I eat seaweed along with my seafood & wild fish meals, it's a carry over from my Macrobiotic days of the 1980s & early 90s. Learnt & still use & pass on many excellent health practices from Macrobiotics. Its a nearly perfect diet if you replace the 50-60% grains pushed on Macrobiotics w/ saturated fats! I used to jokingly call a lot of them, Macroneurotics, coz they were constantly fretting in extreme over this and that food detail being so bad for you, hmmm, sorta like some Primal Blueprinters.... Hmmm...

[BONZ]

You just did...

Well, that aside.... I'm not exactly the person I was referring to..... and I don't eat soy. Window is still open...

[JamesS]

Betorq, thanks for this, I was also told that it is a calcium depleter unless eaten with the seaweed etc. My mum was drinking soy milk for the menopause and had huge problems with her teeth. There is a small mention of it The Dangers of Soy section but easy to miss considering the level of teeth health and osteoporosis generally. (eg menopausal women drinking soy milk to help with that but unknowingly contributing to osteoporosis which is a real problem for older women, fixing a small temporary problem only to create a larger problem).

Osteoporosis is not a loss of calcium and other minerals. Those would be osteopenia and osteomalacia. Although soy has nothing to do with these either.

There is a misconception that soy "robs the body of nutrients" due to its phytic acid content. First of all phytic acid has a much higher affinity for toxic free iron and heavy metals than it does for beneficial minerals. Secondly, if people would stop listening to all the bogus propaganda and use a little common sense they would realize that the phytic acid being consumed would already be bound to minerals the plant picked up from the soil. In order to take anything from the body, such as free iron, heavy metals or anything else the phytic acid would first have to give up the minerals it is already bound to. So the phytic acid is not robbing the body of anything. It can do an exchange reaction though giving up its bound minerals in order to free itself up to take the toxic free iron or heavy metals it has a higher affinity for.

Another common misconception is that there is a high level of oxalic acid in soy that binds calcium and other minerals. The fact is that soy is very low in oxalic acid. And again if people use a little common sense they would realize that the small amount of oxalic acid in soy is not free oxalic acid. It is going to be bound already in the plant just like the phytic acid. So in order to bind to other things in the diet such as free iron it also has a high affinity for it would have to exchange the minerals it is already bound to. It is not like taking a large dose of vitamin C, which breaks down in to oxalic acid in the body binding valuable nutrients.

[Neckhammer]

I mean its been a while since radiology and discussing this minutia, but my understanding is that the difference between osteoporosis and osteopenia is simply a matter of magnitude. Osteopenia can progress to osteoporosis in terms of lost bone desity.....whereas osteomalacia is a completely different entity due to vitamin D problems leading to what is considered (or at least in the basic terms I remember) soft bones and does have to do with all those things D does with mineralization.

[JamesS]

I mean its been a while since radiology and discussing this minutia, but my understanding is that the difference between osteoporosis and osteopenia is simply a matter of magnitude. Osteopenia can progress to osteoporosis in terms of lost bone desity.....whereas osteomalacia is a completely different entity due to vitamin D problems leading to what is considered (or at least in the basic terms I remember) soft bones and does have to do with all those things D does with mineralization.

They are related, but are definitely different.

With osteopenia there is a loss of minerals from the bone. For example from hyperparathyroidism or pseudohyperparathyroidism.

Osteoporosis though does not involve a loss of minerals from the bones. Instead there is a lack of collagen matrix leaving less material for the minerals to bind to in order to form bone. It is like trying to build a wood house without a frame. What are you going to attach the walls to? The collagen matrix is the framework for the bone that gives the bones their vast majority of strength, and gives them the flexibility to absorb force. The minerals mineralize the collagen matrix giving the bones hardness and additional strength. If there is a lack of this collagen framework though the minerals have nothing to attach to and thus the person develops osteoporosis.

[sbhikes]

Swami predicted correctly.

[Betorq]

Swami predicted correctly.

He most certainly did!!

Guys, my mom has had osteopenia for many years. I was told point blank by her doctor that she's been doing fine for a decade, holding it at bay, but that if it ever got worse, it could develop into full on osteoporosis. They are not the same, but osteopenia can lead to the full blown troubles, from what he said & what I've read. My mom has/had an endocrinology appt next week, & I insisted on tagging along, but she keeps cancelling/changing the appt. I leave in 15 days .

AND lately I've been using high grade super long time aged organic tamari almost every day, esp when I'm sauteing onions & other veggies. In such tiny quantities, (1-2 tsp) that instead of worry, it confers some health benefits without the negative ones. I will make some miso soup some too this winter if I end up staying in cold, rainy California instead of Hawaii. I'm gunning of course for the Big Island, Hawaii!

[JamesS]

Swami predicted correctly.

Swami is dumber than previously thought. Here was Swami's prediction:

"The Swamee says.... Before all is said and done.... SOMEBODY is going to jump on this thread and "remind" us all of the estrogen blocking properties of phyto-estrogens in soy and the "high" glucose content of beef.... "

So where was any of that mentioned other than by Swami himself?

[Paleobird]

JamesS says,

[B]Osteoporosis is not a loss of calcium and other minerals. Those would be osteopenia and osteomalacia.

WebMD says,
"Osteopenia refers to bone mineral density (BMD) that is lower than normal peak BMD but not low enough to be classified as osteoporosis. Bone mineral density is a measurement of the level of minerals in the bones, which shows how dense and strong they are. If your BMD is low compared to normal peak BMD, you are said to have osteopenia. Having osteopenia means there is a greater risk that, as time passes, you may develop BMD that is very low compared to normal, known as osteoporosis."

Web MD says the same thing as my oncologist who also told me to give up soy. My osteopenia is now gone.

[jojohaligo]

Thanks for the article. I passed it on to a vegetarian friend, who was happy to get it. It opens the door to some other discussions about diet...