Is Paleo nothing more than Atkins Diet reborn ???? page 2

[BennettC]

low carb is optimal because its a well established fact that glucose is the #1 cause of rapid again

[Leida]

I think Paleo/Primal does remind the latest versions of Atkins, where a person establishes their carb tolerance threshold. However, Primal/Paleo also promote high quality foods and natural fitness approach. I don't know why the fitness portion of Paleo and Primal lifestyle gets overlooked so often by people (or the same person) who posts questions like "Is this organic Atkins?" (Shrug)

[BennettC]

if im not mistaken Atkins is involved with the net carb SCAM!

[Owly]

low carb is optimal because its a well established fact that glucose is the #1 cause of rapid again

Low carb is optimal for some people, but for some of us it is a complete failure. Don't assume everyone needs to eat the same way you do. I lose fat more successfully with moderate carbs, as do others around here. Not all of us have metabolic issues or other health conditions that make vlc necessary or even preferable.

[sbhikes]

Paleo has an evolutionary prism to look through to determine what should be eaten. The Primal Blueprint throws in the carb curve because almost everybody in our culture who buys a diet book has at least a little metabolic syndrome and diet books try to help the most people and provide a path. It also offers recipes and other things that diet books do. But you can find your own path using the evolutionary prism and ignore the carb curve if you want. The fact that (original) Atkins, paleo and Primal as well as the true Mediterranean diet converge on similar foods should tell you something about whether or not it's healthier and more effective to eat real food that isn't low fat or industrially processed.

[JoanieL]

If you just look at the low carb aspect of the food aspect of Primal, and if you disregard the emphasis PB has on organic and wholesomely produced foods, then I guess it's somewhat like Atkins. But you are then only looking at the weight loss portion of PB which is only a subset of the food portion. Because some people on PB are already at a good weight, and some people want to gain.

Then there are nine other broad guidelines to PB which cover avoiding poisons, exercising, getting sun and sleep, using one's mind, and getting in play time.

The forums seem to emphasize food, I'm guessing, because most of us really don't have too many questions on how to get sun or how to play, etc. When I check the forums, I usually see the most people viewing the nutrition section and the exercise section is usually pretty well read also.

In conclusion, if you take a piece (weight loss) of a piece (what/how to eat) of PB, there are some similarities to Atkins.

Atkins (even in the 70s) is pretty much a numbers game: eat low carbs and lose weight. I can eat low carb by living on canned tuna and store bought mayonnaise. But I'd be exposing myself to BPAs from the cans and soy in both the tuna and the mayo. And that, to my understanding, wouldn't be very Primal.

[Scott F]

low carb is optimal because its a well established fact that glucose is the #1 cause of rapid again

That's not quite right. Glucose isn't the problem but fructose is. Fructose increases cellular uric acid. That uric acid affect the mitochondria's ability to produce ATP making the person less energetic and willing to exercise. Effectively, uric acid is flipping a switching causing the person to put on fat. What might the evolutionary purpose for this fat switch? It's for putting on fat for the lean winter months.

In the summer and fall months fruit and berries, also honey, was in season and our ancestors were sourcing this for calories. Bears, and other animals, are doing the exact same thing right now, trying to fatten up for winter. Now that people are eating fructose year round their body thinks is that time of year to put on fat for lean months ahead. Turning off this fat storage switch and turning on a fat burning switch is a matter of food choices.

To lose weight then is mostly of matter of identifying all those foods that raise uric acid levels and keep uric acid as low as possible. Fructose is the main cause. Fructans are polymers of fructose that plants store for energy. Wheat is the primary source of Fructans in the SAD. Gut bacteria breaks fructans down into fructose....which you then absorb. Eating a lot of wheat gives you the Pillsbury Doughboy Syndrome. Another source that causes an increase in uric acid is brewer's yeast, the beer belly. And it doesn't matter if that beer is non-alcoholic. Umami foods, Krill for example, also raises uric acid. That's the uric acid mechanism whales use to fatten up for winter. So uric acid isn't simply a waste product but important biological signal for seasonal fat accumulation. You are partially right about glucose as it turns out concentrated sources of glucose (high glycemic foods) can be converted by the liver into fructose.

Dr Johnson who just released his book, The Fat Switch, writes about all this and thinks the Metabolic Syndrome ought be called The fat Storage Mechanism. Johnson is the chief of the division of renal health and hypertension for the University of Colorado. This is their labs latest research and has been submitted to peer review medical journals.

As far as Atkins goes Johnson would likely fall into the moderate fat and non starchy carbohydrate intake. What people are doing is eating sources of fructose (and/or drink beer) which switches on fat accumulation causing them to want to eat more and move less. Eating fat enhances the fat accumulation process. So the bacon cheeseburger (fructan wheat bun) with french fries (high fat and high glycemic potatoes), and large sugar/fructose soda is the perfect meal for turning on the fat switch and fatten up on.

[BennettC]

I never said anyone has to eat exactly as I do. 150-200 grams = less glucose yield than a SAD diet for sure. I mean take into account some people on a SAD diet eat up to 500 grams a day or more. Of course the lower the better, but like you said some people just can't do it. For instance there have been a lot of threads recently about depression issues because of low carb, in my opinion that's just food addiction and people are looking for something else to place blame on.

[BennettC]

nice post, but I guess what I really mean is a high glucose yield for extended periods of time which cause glycated proteins and long term glysolated end products which are irreversible. For example berries were available maybe a month or two out of the whole year and honey was a rare find. Some fruit available during fall as well. In the south the wild persimmons are coming into season, had a taste of an early bloomer the other day out on my dads property. So glucose would have never been high for extended periods of time, also berries and honey are mostly fructose. Now people can buy fruit and whatnot whenever they want with exerting any energy for it. If you've ever gone out and gather wild berries you know this. Nice argument though with some great facts. Didn't know that about brewers yeast, some of my bodybuilding hero's were supplementing that. Also I'm not saying I don't eat fruit and honey, I just don't eat much of it. Especially since my goal right now is to bulk.

@ Owly- seems like you are bitter towards me from our previous "debate" hope I didn't get off on the wrong foot with you, I'm here to make friends not enemies

[waterjen]

In addition paleo/primal is about more than food: sleep, exercise, play, are all part of it. Atkins is a great gateway, though; plenty of people come to paleo/primal through good old Atkins.

You're right! I had some moderate success with Atkins years ago; it would have been better, but my husband at the time cheated on the diet pretty heavy every weekend, and that kind of temptation is sometimes hard to say no to. After one of those cheat weekends, we never really stopped. We resumed our previous way of living it up. We ultimately split, and I eventually went vegetarian (no cause and effect here). But being veg for health reasons, I never really felt healthier, just more difficult to go out to eat with. I got tired one day of banging my head against the feel-like-crap-all-the-time wall and tried to figure out what I should try to stop eating and start eating. I reflected that Atkins had been an "easy" way to lose weight, but I remember being concerned about all the substitute foods on offer (low-carb flour and snack bars and such) and the lack of emphasis on fruit and veg. A little research beyond that led me right to primal/paleo.
I have lost 15 pounds (without much in the way of added exercise beyond the 4 miles a day walking that's already in my daily regimen) and feel much healthier. I'm not hungry all the time (as I always was in my veg-head days). Like one poster said, we all follow our own interpretation of paleo. My paleo list of foods right now excludes dairy (I pretty much OD'd on cheese while I was a veg) but I may try introducing raw dairy once I've reached my goal weight and have a suitable source for such.