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Thread: The Intermittent Fasting Dilemma 9/14/2012 by Ori Hofmekler Part 1 page 6

  1. #51
    emmie's Avatar
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    For 2 years, I followed the Alternate Day Diet developed by a Dr. Johnson (also known as JUDDD), and he sheds some light on the 500 cal number.

    In his book on the plan, he says that total fasting every other day would be great, but most people could not do that. Then he says that studies show a person can get the same physiological benefit of a total fast by keeping calories at 500 or below.

    Although I'm not following the plan precisely any longer, I still do 2 or 3 days a week at that 500 cal level. I eat mainly protein on those days.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by emmie View Post
    For 2 years, I followed the Alternate Day Diet developed by a Dr. Johnson (also known as JUDDD), and he sheds some light on the 500 cal number.

    In his book on the plan, he says that total fasting every other day would be great, but most people could not do that. Then he says that studies show a person can get the same physiological benefit of a total fast by keeping calories at 500 or below.

    Although I'm not following the plan precisely any longer, I still do 2 or 3 days a week at that 500 cal level. I eat mainly protein on those days.
    Wouldn't fat on those days make more sense? From a ketotic basis?
    "Science is not belief but the will to find out." ~ Anonymous
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    Quote Originally Posted by Betorq View Post
    Wouldn't fat on those days make more sense? From a ketotic basis?
    Plus that large amounts of protein ruin any benefits obtained from autophagy which is another reason to fast.

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    Drumroll, is that right? Interesting.

    Emmie, I presume you eat mainly protein on those days because it's more filling, but as the other posters point out fat might be a better choice.

    Gonna try the 500 calorie thing once a week. I'm thinking of having fish and vegetables with some olive oil or coconut oil. Does the timing matter? Probably it's best to have it in the evening I'm thinking. Going to bed very hungry drives me nuts and I sleep terribly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabre View Post
    Drumroll, is that right? Interesting.

    Emmie, I presume you eat mainly protein on those days because it's more filling, but as the other posters point out fat might be a better choice.

    Gonna try the 500 calorie thing once a week. I'm thinking of having fish and vegetables with some olive oil or coconut oil. Does the timing matter? Probably it's best to have it in the evening I'm thinking. Going to bed very hungry drives me nuts and I sleep terribly.
    Autophagy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Particularly, this: "During nutrient starvation, increased levels of autophagy lead to the breakdown of non-vital components and the release of nutrients, ensuring that vital processes can continue."

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    I read through the original posts and he kept talking about "Nocturnal Feeding", but never specified a time or maybe I missed it.
    I have been looking at the whole IF/Circadian Rhythm/Calorie Restriction/Longevity stuff and am trying to get a framework in my head of the idealised picture of feeding, activity, lifestyle would look like.
    On an evolutionary basis it is highly likely that our main feeding was somewhere between Noon and 9:00pm, the primary reason for this is we were day time hunters, very likely persistance hunters and even the quickest hunt would not get back to camp before noon, probably more likely mid to late afternoon, then there is always going to be prep time and cooking. Controlled use of fire preceded Homo Sapiens by at least 200kya as evidenced by dated remains of stone circle fireplaces going back to 400kya and possibly even up to 2mya, so the very first Human was likely felt the heat of an open fire within minutes of being born and cooking was well established already. So even at this very early stage we were already lounging by an open fire picking our teeth, reviewing the day past and planning the day ahead, the late afternoon/early evening BBQ is older than the Human race and this rolls in nicely with our Primal fascination with fire.
    Regarding Circadian Rhythms we peak in alertness and mental cognition between late morning and early afternoon and then there is a little lethargy dip mid afternoon before we then go into our peak physical capabilities between 4-8pm, cognitive abilities are a bit lower, but body temp & metabolism peaks. From that one could possibly suggest that this time frame may be the ideal feeding window, it's early evening, we have a big lump of meat to cook and digest and are at the peak of strength if we need to fend of predators which would just be getting active at that stage, I'm still trying to map the hormonal patterns to understand what is going on.
    There are clear benefits to this way of living, provided our bodies are tuned to it and not too badly damaged from our past years of gorging 24/7.
    There was some interesting stuff I stumbled on with "Genetics and Longevity" Link below:
    "Genes From the Fountain of Youth" - Prof. Cynthia Kenyon - YouTube
    Not specifically IF and much of the research is on animals and a little worm, C. Elegans, but it does show clear indications that some calorie restriction is most likely much healthier than no restriction, still need to do more hunting around in this area.
    Needless to say I am a convert to IF, but still looking to tune it to my life.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabre View Post
    Drumroll, is that right? Interesting.
    Emmie, I presume you eat mainly protein on those days because it's more filling, but as the other posters point out fat might be a better choice.
    Gonna try the 500 calorie thing once a week. I'm thinking of having fish and vegetables with some olive oil or coconut oil. Does the timing matter? Probably it's best to have it in the evening I'm thinking. Going to bed very hungry drives me nuts and I sleep terribly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Drumroll View Post
    Autophagy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Particularly, this: "During nutrient starvation, increased levels of autophagy lead to the breakdown of non-vital components and the release of nutrients, ensuring that vital processes can continue."
    Hey Sabre, those of us with neurological issues can really benefit from autophagy. Check this out.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omni View Post
    I read through the original posts and he kept talking about "Nocturnal Feeding", but never specified a time or maybe I missed it.
    Well I was going to post, I thought I found some info, but it was in regards to Traditional Chinese Medicine and not Circadian Rhythms like I first thought. I saved each of the 2 hour breakdowns if you want it, but it isn't abut IF as it mentions eating 3 times. But none the less interesting

    Accordingto Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) our bodies energy or Chi is inconstant motion that ‘peaks’ every 2 hours with one of ourinternal organs which means that during this time period the organ ismost active. Working in sync with our internal organs helps us toachieve good health. If the energy is blocked or out of balance,symptoms will be more noticeable during the organs active 2 hourperiod.
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  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by gopintos View Post
    Well I was going to post, I thought I found some info, but it was in regards to Traditional Chinese Medicine and not Circadian Rhythms like I first thought. I saved each of the 2 hour breakdowns if you want it, but it isn't abut IF as it mentions eating 3 times. But none the less interesting

    I have tried looking at some of the TCM stuff and other eastern philosophies, the whole Chakra stuff and I do find some corrolations with certain aspects, but just find that most of it is so entangled with religious belief streams that it becomes very tedious for me to try to remain objective and extract any valuable information that may be present. I have done quite a bit of Meditation & Tai Chi, but there are certain aspects of the philosophy that just don't ring true with me.
    It's kind of like the whole Leptin Reset stuff, there might be some value in it, but it's so far away from where I am that for me to go there would require a major paradigm shift and I just can't see how our ancestors would have saved the biggest juiciest whack of meat to knock within 30min after waking, maybe they picked a few bones or sucked out some marrow, but that would be it.

    One thing that spurred me further on this circadian idea was a study I read, done on mice and skin cancer, they found that there was a massive difference to severity depending on when the UV exposure was in relation to the circadian rhythm, when translated to human cycles this would mean the safest time for Sun Exposure would be morning to early afternoon, late afternoon would be the highest risk time. What do many people do in summer?, Rush home from work, bundle up the kids and rush to water and catch the last rays of Sun or should I say UVA & Melenoma.

    The Hypothesis with the mice is that if they are exposed during the bodies DNA repair stage then incidence is very low as any damage done by UV is quickly repaired, but if the exposure is during the cell proliferation & growth stage then incidence is extremely high, this is because any mutations can not be repaired quick enough with cell replication of mutations.

    That got me thinking about the repair and growth cycles of the body, although there isn't much "Hard Data" on it, the morning period seems to be the repair and clean up stage so any distractions from this, which digestion most likely is, would hamper the bodys ability to do this. Once everything is cleaned up, appropriate repairs completed, damage assessed then the body goes into "Growth & re building" phase, this seems to corrolate with the later afternoon peak in body temp and metabolic rate and this seems to be the time the body is most receptive to feeding, this continues into the night and then early morning switches back to "Repair & Clean up"
    Like I said, no real hard data, but the indications are that seems to be the way we evolved, minimal food in morning, full sun exposure Hunting & Gathering in the middle of the day and then a late afternoon BBQ in the shade, going to sleep by firelight before midnight.
    Last edited by Omni; 09-25-2012 at 05:57 PM.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omni View Post
    That got me thinking about the repair and growth cycles of the body
    Sort of what I found. I will try to post. Might take two of them if it is too long.

    5.00amto 7.00am is the time of the Large Intestine or Colon. This is thetime of the day for ‘letting go’ both physically and mentally. Onrising drink a large glass of warm water with lemon juice, you canadd some ginger to trigger the elimination process and prepare thebody for a good breakfast. Do some stretching, some physical activitylike walking or yoga. A good time to do the ‘Sun Salutation’ andwelcome the day.


    7.00amto 9.00am is the time of the Stomach. The stomach is the organ thatis responsible for the breaking down and digestion of our food intakeand this is the time for a good breakfast. The name says it all:Break – Fast. Your body has been busy during the night workingwhile you sleep and it has been a long time since your last meal. Itis better to eat the largest meal early in the day when the stomachis at its ‘peak’ and better able to absorb the nutrients from thefood to prepare the body for mental alertness and work.


    9.00amto 11.00am is the time of the Spleen. The spleen takes over from thestomach and aids in the transformation and transportation of food anddrink. It is also associated with mental alertness, concentration andwork. Without the raw materials (breakfast) in the stomach to bepassed onto the spleen so that it can convert the nutrients intoenergy, it cannot do its job properly, which leads to the inabilityto concentrate effectively; eg children who skip breakfast. With ourenergy on the up, we are ready for action mentally and physically.


    11.00amto 1.00pm is the time of the Heart. Nutrients enter the blood streamand the heart pumps them throughout our body. This is the time whenthe heart operates at its peak, giving us a feeling of joy and love,a feeling that all is well with us therefore we can give positiveenergy to others. A time to connect to our soul purpose and meaningin life. A spiritual time.


    1.00pmto 3.00pm is the time of the Small Intestine. The morning has beenspent with working and getting things done, now we need to have anourishing and warm lunch, in the company of friends is also good.Lunch should not be a rushed meal but be an enjoyable time, thesecond largest meal of the day to be savoured. This is where theMediterranean lifestyle is ideal, where after lunch you can have asiesta. By slowing down about now it allows the small intestine to doits work, which is mostly with proteins as they need a longer time todigest, and to absorb nutrients that the body needs and leave behindwhat needs to be eliminated.


    3.00pmto 5.00pm is the time of the Bladder. Metabolic wastes from the foodwe have eaten during the day clear, making room for the kidney’sfiltration to come. If we have been working with the body’s clockwe should have a feeling of living in harmony with life. A feeling ofbeing in one with spirit; we feel recharged and ready to do whatevercomes next, but in a more relaxed way. We go with the flow.


    5.00pmto 7.00pm is the time of the Kidneys. The kidneys job is to filterthe blood. The next 2 hours for most of us is spent in finishing workand going home. It is the time when we switch off as we leave workand start thinking of having fun, meeting friends for a get togetheror a time to reflect on the day. If it was not so good do not dwellon it, tomorrow is another day. This is the time for happiness andlaughter.


    7.00pmto 9.00pm is the time of the Pericardium and Circulation. Thepericardium is not really an organ but does have an important part toplay in our bodies; it is the thin membrane that surrounds the heartand the heart pumps the blood to circulate around our body. This istime for being and feeling at home with our family and ourselves, atime when you can feel safe and warm. A time to have a light meal, ofrelaxing, putting your feet up and simply just being yourself. A timeto spend doing things just for you; maybe an evening class or familytime: games, crafts, reading and playing or listening to music.


    9.00pmto 11.00pm is the time of the San Jiao / Triple Heater. This is notan organ but refers to the endocrine system. The endocrine system isthe system of glands, each of which secretes different types ofhormone directly into the bloodstream to regulate the body, likemood, growth and development and metabolism. One of the hormones isMelatonin which is involved with regulating the sleeping and wakingcycles. While this is going on it is a good time to snuggle up inbed, to drift off to sleep and have pleasant dreams of farawayplaces.


    11.00pmto 1.00am is the time of the Gallbladder. The gallbladder is a smallorgan that aids mainly in fat digestion and concentrates bileproduced by the liver and in TCM enhances brain function. This is thetime when we may have had a problem during the day that we could notsolve, so as the saying goes, ‘Sleep on It’, you are more likelyto have the answer in the morning.


    1.00am– 3.00am is the time of the Liver. In TCM it is called the‘general’ in charge of the overall body functions and to bringharmony. An unhappy liver leads to an unhappy body, physically andmentally. Blood from the digestive system must first filter throughthe liver where toxins are removed, before it travels anywhere elsein the body to deliver nourishment to the appropriate places, givingus energy throughout the day at the times we need it most. While wesleep the blood returns to the liver to be cleansed/detoxified andrevitalised. This benefits all our organs.

    3.00am– 5.00am is the time of the Lungs. Their main function is to takeclean oxygenated air from the atmosphere into the bloodstream and inthe next breath we release carbon dioxide from the bloodstream intothe atmosphere. All this happens so naturally that we don’t reallythink about it until we have trouble breathing. We tend to take ourlungs for granted. We took our first breath when we were born, wewill take our last breath when we die, each day between be aware ofyour breathing and your life, give thanks.

    'InTCM lungs are associated with clear communication and thinking,openness to new ideas, a positive self-image and ability to relax,let go and be happy. In order to nurture our lungs, and allow them tofulfil their function, it is helpful to practice some deep breathingexercises upon rising to stimulate the lungs.'
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