Someone Argue This page 2

[qqemokitty]

Carbs aren't bad. The grains we eat in America are not the same grains we ate 100 years ago, and certainly not the same grains that Vikings made their trenchers our of in ye olden days. Everything about them is different.

Also, what Primal Pete said.

[Thrakk]

We owe a lot to grainy carbs. Us humans wouldn't be where we are today if agriculture never emerged, producing staples like bread and rice all over the world. I don't think anyone should be saying that carbs are 'bad', but most of us here will believe that the quantity of grains and sugars found in supermarkets has reached absurd quantities. I was grocery shopping last night and was struck when I noticed that there are whole aisles that I would no longer grab any item from.

Finding foods with high energy yield is beneficial for every single animal that has ever existed including humans. In recent times we took it too far though. Most dishes eaten in the standard western diet are bursting at the seams with sugar and grainy carbs, and this is reflected in the insane statistical levels of obesity we've managed to achieve. There's something truly screwed up with the way we live, and experimenting with reducing grains and sugars is as good a place as any to begin experimenting with healthier living. Seems to be working for a large number of people.

The OP is quite provocatively worded, I'm wondering if the responses in this thread so far are what you were expecting Chrisf12?

[Englishman in Oz]

The problem with the CW vs Primal carb debate is often that our definitions differ so greatly that we're talking about complete opposites. To much of the population, carbs = grains, sugar and perhaps white potatoes (often deep-fried in dodgy poly oils). To say that "no-one is saying carbs are bad" isn't true. I am. I'm saying THESE carbs are bad. I'll shout it from the rooftops. Mark says it too, in many, many posts. And as this is his baby, it's fair to say that's the view of Primal(tm).

What I understand from the Primal standpoint is that there are lots of other, and indeed better (more nutritious, less harmful) sources of carbs out there that are far more worthy of our consumption. Hello sweet potato, take a bow vegetables. Give a cursory nod to the occasional white rice. I often get comments from friends and family when I'm tucking into a large plate of meat and vegetables along the lines of "where's the carbohydrate?". Well, it's right there in that massive pile of veggies you see before you.

Primal recommends eating ADEQUATE carbs for your needs from the best sources. It's only low-carb by modern CW definitions. To the OP, some sources of carbs aren't optimal for promoting health in a human human body, this is a fact. You are correct about levels of activity and the plethora of crappy books and products out there that fall under the banner of health, but your opinions are too bombastic and narrow-focused to hold any influence with me. Carbs aren't carbs aren't carbs. It's all about context.

[Neckhammer]

Started to read the OP then all it just turned into a blur of words that read:

You primal people.....Troll TrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTroll TrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTroll TrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTroll TrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTroll TrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTroll TrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTroll TrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTroll .....Sooooo TrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTroll TrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTroll

[SophieScreams]

Started to read the OP then all it just turned into a blur of words that read:

You primal people.....Troll TrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTroll TrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTroll TrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTroll TrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollAtkinsTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTroll TrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTroll TrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTroll .....Sooooo TrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTroll TrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTroll

Fixed that for ya.

[KV8R]

Started to read the OP then all it just turned into a blur of words that read:

You primal people.....Troll TrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTroll TrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTroll TrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTroll TrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTroll TrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTroll TrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTroll TrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTroll .....Sooooo TrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTroll TrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTroll

^^^^^^ OK, That's funny ^^^^^^^^

[abc123]

Veggies are carbs, but hardly.. I can eat TONS of veggies in a day & not top 50g of carbs..

Carbs are the least important macro in my diet.. When in doubt, I cut the carb.. I dont' think they are "good" for my body.. BUT this is because I have a damaged metabolism, but don't well all?

-carbs drive inflammation
-carbs drive insulin which drives fat (assuming your sedentary like most)
-carbs & grains lead to inflammatory bowel disorders
-carbs stray the body away from its preferred source of energy, fat
-carbs are addicting & makes you more hungry (satiation seems more natural than sugar-cravings)

I can't eat potatoes, so I stay away from starch AND grain, & of course sugar.. maybe I'll have a banana or plum a day

Carbs are not good for my body.. A "refeed"? Refilling my body with glycogen works & makes me a little "high", & fills my lean muscle out, I get that.. Fine with it for a meal, can't do it two days in a row..

Vegetables (hardly "carbs" in comparison to what an average american calls a "carb", veggies are more like low calorie plant fiber that moves protein & fat through the system while sprinkling tiny bits of vitamin throughout.. good for you, but hardly a "carb" if we're talking about America)..

The lower & more consistent I keep my carbs, the healthier I feel & better I look.. I wouldn't say "carbs are good".. pretty simple for me & my body... & easy to argue

[Englishman in Oz]

Veggies are carbs, but hardly.. I can eat TONS of veggies in a day & not top 50g of carbs..

Carbs are the least important macro in my diet.. When in doubt, I cut the carb.. I dont' think they are "good" for my body.. BUT this is because I have a damaged metabolism, but don't well all?

-carbs drive inflammation
-carbs drive insulin which drives fat (assuming your sedentary like most)
-carbs & grains lead to inflammatory bowel disorders
-carbs stray the body away from its preferred source of energy, fat
-carbs are addicting & makes you more hungry (satiation seems more natural than sugar-cravings)

I can't eat potatoes, so I stay away from starch AND grain, & of course sugar.. maybe I'll have a banana or plum a day

Carbs are not good for my body.. A "refeed"? Refilling my body with glycogen works & makes me a little "high", & fills my lean muscle out, I get that.. Fine with it for a meal, can't do it two days in a row..

Vegetables (hardly "carbs" in comparison to what an average american calls a "carb", veggies are more like low calorie plant fiber that moves protein & fat through the system while sprinkling tiny bits of vitamin throughout.. good for you, but hardly a "carb" if we're talking about America)..

The lower & more consistent I keep my carbs, the healthier I feel & better I look.. I wouldn't say "carbs are good".. pretty simple for me & my body... & easy to argue

So you're saying you get adequate carbs for your body through a diet rich in vegetables and low in grain and starch? That sounds like the Primal Blueprint to me, and also simar to the point I was making.

I'm surprised you eat a ton of veg each day and not get over 50g though. I eat a lot of veg (not heaps and heaps) and I get easily over 50g a day from it. But then, again it's about definition. I think of potatoes, squash and tomatoes as veg, even though I suppose they're technically not. Different veg have different carb contents I guess.

And I agree that vegetables aren't carbs to your average american. Again, it's all about definitions. That's why CW and Primal will never agree, and even why some Primal folk will never agree. Vegetables are carbs in my world. They're an adequate and nutritious source of carbs for my needs. That others define carbs differently doesn't change that fact.

BTW, if that's you in your avatar, awesome job! What kind of workouts do you do?

[sbhikes]

Well, the diet of my ancient ancestors was comprised of:

Reindeer - meat, organs and milk
Fish - including roe and organs
Herbs
Berries
Elk
Bear

Eventually they also used the following:
Potatoes
Rye
Flour
Salt

Somehow they survived centuries before potatoes, rye, flour and salt were available.

[JoanieL]

OP,

Sure, carbs are fine. Different levels for different goals: gaining, maintaining, losing. As to grains? Well, even the USDA admits that over 80% of wheat, corn, and soy (not a grain, I know) are genetically modified. Personally, I'd rather eat my fingernails than GMO foods. But, I've done my own reading on the subject, so ymmv.

PB tells us to eat lots of plants, animals, and bugs. Plants are carbs. So, I wonder where this anti-carb idea is from.

300+ carbs per day is bad, and most folks eating that way are shoving Big Macs from the drive-through, because they're too tired to even get out of the car to order them. (Okay, that last part was sarcastic.)

Oh, and FYI, people were doing Atkins in the 70s.

But if "you [non] primal people" want to eat lots of GMO grain products by the saints at Monsanto, go right ahead.

Not sure why you care what we think. You have it all figured out, so go graze.