Is it time to put a muzzle on free speech? page 2

[Primal Bill]

HOW DARE YOU! HOW FN DARE YOU question our 1st ammendment because of the way some idiot muslim terrorists respond. YOU SHOULD BE ASHMAED Of yourself for even asking the question. You are pathetic. It's weak people like you and weak people like the president who have given these idiots the confidence to threaten american lives and american property. how dare you question our freedom of speech. you make me sick. people like you make me sick. Why don't you criticize the idiots who are responsible for killing innoncent americans and attacking property. Stop making excuses for people who think they have the right to kill you because oyu disagree with their religion. Start criticizing the muslims who act like animals. You make me sick

[Blackcatbone]

No. Absolutely not. The video is an excuse. There's plenty of reason for some to feel hatred towards America, which I won't get into, but the video didn't flip some switch in people's heads. They were already angry and this was their "justification."

[Urban Forager]

I can understand Nady's sentiment ..... what that video poster did was akin to yelling "fire!" in a crowded theater. Is any one asking why it was posted on Sept 11? Doesn't that seem a bit intentional? I think that who ever posted it is some what responsible for the reaction that occurred.

[Primal Bill]

i can understand nady's sentiment ..... What that video poster did was akin to yelling "fire!" in a crowded theater. Is any one asking why it was posted on sept 11? Doesn't that seem a bit intentional? I think that who ever posted it is some what responsible for the reaction that occurred.

you don't have the right to kill someone because you disagree with their religion!!!!!!!!
Stop making excuses for muslims
you idiot liberals attack christians/catholics non stop, with absolutely no retaliation.
Stop making excuses for muslims.

[Urban Forager]

HOW DARE YOU! HOW FN DARE YOU question our 1st ammendment because of the way some idiot muslim terrorists respond. YOU SHOULD BE ASHMAED Of yourself for even asking the question. You are pathetic. It's weak people like you and weak people like the president who have given these idiots the confidence to threaten american lives and american property. how dare you question our freedom of speech. you make me sick. people like you make me sick. Why don't you criticize the idiots who are responsible for killing innoncent americans and attacking property. Stop making excuses for people who think they have the right to kill you because oyu disagree with their religion. Start criticizing the muslims who act like animals. You make me sick

Wow you are kind of scary. Are American lives the only lives that you get this worked up about?

[Primal Bill]

Wow you are kind of scary. Are American lives the only lives that you get this worked up about?

innoncent lives that are taken by people who think they have the right to kill you because you don't believen in mohommed or islam....thats what gets me worked up...idiots who support and make excuses for people hwo take innoncent lives because they disagree with their religion

[Uncephalized]

So, it's okay to bully? slander? What about yelling *fire* in a theater, or *bomb* on a plane? There are some exceptions to free speech, wouldn't you say?

These are not at issue, and you are distracting from the actual question at hand. These exceptions are exceptions because they cause direct harm to people. Insulting a religion, or the beliefs or history of said religion, does no one any direct harm. It's not even slander, because the people being spoken about are long dead--Muhammad himself can hardly press charges for defamation of character leading to material damage to his livelihood or reputation, can he? No one is forcing anyone (presumably) to watch this video, and the video itself AFAIK does not actually contain any incitement to violence (if it does that would change my opinion). It is criticism. It may be ignorant, wrong-headed and/or in extremely poor taste, but the only people who have done anything truly immoral or evil are the people who have perpetrated violence in reaction.

If you knew saying a specific something would bring another person/group to violence against others, do you still have the 'right' to say it? Morally, ethically? IDK, some people have a short fuse (thinking about road rage here, not any group in particular). Whatever happened to *Discretion is the better part of valor*?

You are not responsible for other people's actions. They are.

Let me say it again. You are not responsible for other people's actions. They are.

Let's put it another way: say you need to make a right turn, and you change lanes in front of someone to get in the right lane, then slow down and make your turn. Let's say you cut it a little closer than is strictly comfortable for the person behind you, and they have to get on the brakes to avoid running into you. Nothing dangerous--they had time to slow down, but it was annoying, abrupt and inconvenient. Now let's say this person you just cut off is an asshole, and proceeds to get all pissed off at the world and everybody, and is in an all-fired goddamn hurry because he and his time and his convenience are the most important thing on the goddamn planet, and he starts creeping up to 20 over the limit, tailgating and weaving through traffic, all "because that asshole [you, in this scenario, are "that asshole"] back there cut me off". Now let's say he's in such a big goddamn hurry that he runs a stoplight, as such rage-prone individuals are apt to do, and T-bones a 17-year-old girl driving her grandfather to the doctor's office, causing their deaths.

Now, were you in any way at fault for this not-so-accident? You may have done something ill-considered and somewhat rude, but are you really expecting to take any of the blame for the death of this girl and her grandpa? I certainly wouldn't blame you; I wouldn't take your driver's license away, or try and put you in traffic school, or do anything to you besides maybe advise you to drive a little more prudently in future because what you did could conceivably have directly caused a collision, had circumstances been less fortunate. The road-rager, on the other hand, should be in prison, because he fucking killed people through his direct, aggressive and reckless actions, not you. What he did with himself and his car, after you didn't cause him any harm, is in no way under your control but is under his.

In case you're missing the parallel here, "you" are the creator of the inflammatory video in question, who I will freely admit did something dumb and fairly irresponsible. The road-raging asshole is an Islamist fanatic who thinks that his extremist religious beliefs are more important than other people's lives, and the people that got killed are the similarly uninvolved and innocent people who also got killed in the real world.

I can understand Nady's sentiment ..... what that video poster did was akin to yelling "fire!" in a crowded theater. Is any one asking why it was posted on Sept 11? Doesn't that seem a bit intentional? I think that who ever posted it is some what responsible for the reaction that occurred.

Please see above as to why these are not at all the same thing. And yes, of course it was obviously, blatantly, intentionally offensive to Muslims--that doesn't make him responsible for anyone's death. He (or she?) said words. They destroyed lives and property. There is a world of difference and the two actions are not even in the same class of bad. The former is merely rude. The latter is inexcusably evil.

[Blackcatbone]

you don't have the right to kill someone because you disagree with their religion!!!!!!!!
Stop making excuses for muslims
you idiot liberals attack christians/catholics non stop, with absolutely no retaliation.
Stop making excuses for muslims.

People attack x-tianity because it's the dominant religion in the US, and thus wields more power than any other. I find islam to be just as asinine as any other belief, but have no issues with most because they have very little impact on my life. Way too many x-tians would like to turn the US into a theocracy, which I have a serious issue with. As far as I can tell, no one is defending the actions of those causing the violence, but rather trying to understand the reasons for it. While I agree that thinking that we should ban anti-muslim speech is an incredibly bad idea, I get the frustration. Those who release this kind of thing do so knowing full well that they are further inflaming anger that is much more deep seated than "OMG, the infidels insulted Muhammad, KILL! KILL!" And they do it knowing full well what the reaction will be. Not just from fundamentalist muslims but also right wing x-tians who can't get down off of their crosses.

[sbhikes]

Who is questioning the 1st amendment? We're questioning what if anything should be done when somebody's first amendment rights cause a political disaster. Should anything be done? Should nothing be done? If anything should be done, then what do you do when we hold such a cherished position as the freedom of speech? If nothing should be done, then what do we do about what's happening? Nothing?

[Nady]

Let's put it another way: say you need to make a right turn, and you change lanes in front of someone to get in the right lane, then slow down and make your turn. Let's say you cut it a little closer than is strictly comfortable for the person behind you, and they have to get on the brakes to avoid running into you. Nothing dangerous--they had time to slow down, but it was annoying, abrupt and inconvenient. Now let's say this person you just cut off is an asshole, and proceeds to get all pissed off at the world and everybody, and is in an all-fired goddamn hurry because he and his time and his convenience are the most important thing on the goddamn planet, and he starts creeping up to 20 over the limit, tailgating and weaving through traffic, all "because that asshole [you, in this scenario, are "that asshole"] back there cut me off". Now let's say he's in such a big goddamn hurry that he runs a stoplight, as such rage-prone individuals are apt to do, and T-bones a 17-year-old girl driving her grandfather to the doctor's office, causing their deaths.

Now, were you in any way at fault for this not-so-accident? You may have done something ill-considered and somewhat rude, but are you really expecting to take any of the blame for the death of this girl and her grandpa? I certainly wouldn't blame you; I wouldn't take your driver's license away, or try and put you in traffic school, or do anything to you besides maybe advise you to drive a little more prudently in future because what you did could conceivably have directly caused a collision, had circumstances been less fortunate. The road-rager, on the other hand, should be in prison, because he fucking killed people through his direct, aggressive and reckless actions, not you. What he did with himself and his car, after you didn't cause him any harm, is in no way under your control but is under his.

In case you're missing the parallel here, "you" are the creator of the inflammatory video in question, who I will freely admit did something dumb and fairly irresponsible. The road-raging asshole is an Islamist fanatic who thinks that his extremist religious beliefs are more important than other people's lives, and the people that got killed are the similarly uninvolved and innocent people who also got killed in the real world.

I agree~ but let's add to your example~ lets just say you knew this other driver~ from the neighborhood. You knew he tended to overreact, that he was a hothead. Would you still change lanes in front of him, or slow down and pull behind?

Do I believe everyone is responsible for their actions? You betcha I do! But I also know that everyone does not hold life as dearly as I do. Especially the life of an infidel. For everyone to cherish the same rights, it helps if they have the same values, don't you think?