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Thread: Is it time to put a muzzle on free speech? page 17

  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nady View Post
    IDK~ Do we sink to their level? Copy their behavior? Or try to change things? Maybe just try to be better ourselves.
    So you feel they are lower or inferior to us? That we must be careful lest the wild beasts attack us? Appeasement never works.

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncephalized View Post
    Oh gods, you really don't understand the difference, do you? If someone fires a bullet and it hits someone, clearly they are at fault. WORDS ARE NOT FUCKING BULLETS. WORDS DO NOT KILL PEOPLE. For a video to "cause" harm, someone has to choose to act in response to it in a way that harms. This choice is not under the control of the person who said the words. Is it stupid to intentionally provoke someone you know is prone to irrational violence? Sure. But the government emphatically should not be in the business of legislating common sense.

    Bullying is characterized by persistent, aggressive harassment in situations where the victim can't escape the bad treatment--this is not the case when someone has done nothing but post a video on a website. This is not an aggressive action, and the people who might be offended by it are perfectly free not to watch it--no one is following them around blaring it out at top volume and forcing them to be confronted by it constantly, which would be bullying/harassment. They freely chose to watch it, and it is their own insanity that then leads to violence in response.

    It's also clearly not slander, because it didn't make any false statements that would lead to material harm to a living person. Seriously, these are not complicated principles.

    There are clear reasons why these things are exceptions--they are definable and cause measurable, direct harm. Going down the censorship road to appease violent zealots harms everyone interested in freedom--it's how they win and begin establishing theocracy, by punishing ideas that contradict their beliefs with violence.
    You really just don't get it, do you. The rest of the world is not populated by Americans! To expect them to adhere to our laws, freedoms, habits, morals, values instead of their own is damned arrogant. No wonder we have such a poor image on the world stage.

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nady View Post
    You're making a judgement based on your values, your upbringing regarding words. How do you know how other cultures react to critical words? What if what you think is a silly name, they think it's a smear on their honor? To say *words will never hurt me* isn't even true here in America. Ask anyone that's been called 'fat' all their lives.
    Words being hurtful has nothing to do with removing responsibility for a persons actions.

    If I got so mad about the stuff in the thread with all the "Fat people Hate" and hacked someones ISP and found them and killed them because they were calling me (all fat people) lazy and disgusting... because I haven't met their ideal body composition levels yet...

    Well... sorry. It was THEIR fault... they were saying all those mean things!
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  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by cori93437 View Post
    Words being hurtful has nothing to do with removing responsibility for a persons actions.

    If I got so mad about the stuff in the thread with all the "Fat people Hate" and hacked someones ISP and found them and killed them because they were calling me (all fat people) lazy and disgusting... because I haven't met their ideal body composition levels yet...

    Well... sorry. It was THEIR fault... they were saying all those mean things!
    Yeah~ but you don't live in one of those countries where honor is more important than life.

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nady View Post
    You're making a judgement based on your values, your upbringing regarding words. How do you know how other cultures react to critical words? What if what you think is a silly name, they think it's a smear on their honor? To say *words will never hurt me* isn't even true here in America. Ask anyone that's been called 'fat' all their lives.
    Nope. Words don't hurt people. Never have and never will. Like I said in my previous post, I think we need to agree to disagree here. That's the thing, other cultures reacting to critical words, they choose to react in whatever way. It's still not the words responsible, it's the person that chooses their reactions.

    If we should eliminate using critical words because other cultures react to those critical words, shouldn't the other cultures eliminate their reactions to those critical words? So if we put a "muzzle on free speech", shouldn't other cultures put a "muzzle" on....oh I don't know....killing? I think someone posted something similar to this earlier.

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nady View Post
    You really just don't get it, do you. The rest of the world is not populated by Americans! To expect them to adhere to our laws, freedoms, habits, morals, values instead of their own is damned arrogant. No wonder we have such a poor image on the world stage.
    To expect people to want to embrace liberty based ideals is arrogant?
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  7. #167
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    Sure, we should muzzle free speech. And take away everyone's guns. Make arbitrary decisions on what drugs are legal (alcohol) and what aren't (just about every other drug). Tell people what kind of food their kids should eat. Ban books. Require driver's licenses to vote. Tax the "sins" we haven't outlawed yet.

    Because as God as my witness, I know elected officials are smarter than I am and the laws they pass are for my own good.

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nady View Post
    You're making a judgement based on your values, your upbringing regarding words. How do you know how other cultures react to critical words? What if what you think is a silly name, they think it's a smear on their honor? To say *words will never hurt me* isn't even true here in America. Ask anyone that's been called 'fat' all their lives.
    Yes, clearly at some point you have to draw a moral line and say that it is not acceptable to react to words with violence. If your culture says differently, then your culture is wrong.

    Just think, for 10 seconds, about the two alternate worlds we're describing. In one of them, it's considered acceptable to respond violently to insults. In another, it's not, and such outbursts are discouraged and punished. Which one of these worlds is preferable? Unless you enjoy risking your safety whenever you interact with anyone whose personality and sensibilities you don't know well (anything you say could plausibly be offensive to someone, including not speaking at all), clearly the latter is the better situation.

    You have to apply your principles equally, to everyone, otherwise you're engaging in special pleading. You can't say that it's incumbent on Americans to avoid offending middle-eastern Muslims because they have special magical feelings and their culture makes it so that they can't control their violent impulses. Bullshit. You know how often theocratic Muslims say incredibly, unbelievably offensive things about Jews, the West, and everyone they don't like? Every. Single. Day. They even make extremely offensive propaganda movies, just like this asshole did. Does that mean that if I decide to get offended and go defend my honor by shooting a bunch of Muslims, it's their fault I killed them? FUCK NO. It's mine.

    The correct reaction is condemn them verbally, and ridicule their insanity, and hope to convince more and more people over time that their way of thinking is backwards and violent and perpetuating barbarity. And stop blaming non-violent people for the violence of others.
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  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nady View Post
    You really just don't get it, do you. The rest of the world is not populated by Americans! To expect them to adhere to our laws, freedoms, habits, morals, values instead of their own is damned arrogant. No wonder we have such a poor image on the world stage.
    Ok... I'm sorry...
    But to expect us to adhere to a different set of habits, morals, and values based on the reactions of a few fundamentalists is ridiculous.

    Should we also change the way we behave in order to not get certain American fundamentalist in a fuss too?

    There are hundreds of fundamentalist groups... all with VERY different expectations of behavior.
    The behavior expected by one group could actually offend another.
    Then what?
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
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    And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.


  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nady View Post
    You really just don't get it, do you. The rest of the world is not populated by Americans! To expect them to adhere to our laws, freedoms, habits, morals, values instead of their own is damned arrogant. No wonder we have such a poor image on the world stage.
    You are the only one who doesn't get it. Yes, I believe that extending universal and equal rights to all people, and promoting a world where violence is condemned and discouraged, where people can express their opinions without fearing for their lives, regardless of whose fee-fees might get hurt, is a WAY BETTER FUCKING WORLD than one where we systematically hand over every scrap of freedom we've achieved to appease the superstitious, violent barbarians who would as soon behead you as spit on you. The ideas of freedom of religion, expression, and association, and of freedom from violence and oppression, are ideas to be fought for, ideas to die for if necessary. It's not arrogance to condemn violence irrespective of culture. Universal, equal human rights is the only sane way to live in a global world, full stop.
    Today I will: Eat food, not poison. Plan for success, not settle for failure. Live my real life, not a virtual one. Move and grow, not sit and die.

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