EAT MOAR FAT! I'm finally GETTING it. page

[Paleobird]

This post is inspired by a new forum member named Barbara who PMed me asking my advice about her weight loss situation. I was about to direct her to my two mega threads about calorie counting

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread24580.html
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread29501.html

when I realized that my thinking has really moved on from there recently with my experiments in nutritional ketosis.

When I first wanted to lose weight, before finding PB, I just "went low carb" and lost the first 30 easily. Then came The Dreaded Stall.
I found PB and was delighted with the whole concept. But then I became one of those fresh faced newbies with the "Why am I not losing weight?" questions. Great food but they scale wasn't moving.

The answer I kept getting over and over again was a resounding, "EAT MOAR FAT!" So I did. And gained weight.

Looking back, I see that this experience caused me to reject the whole high fat paradigm and embrace calorie counting instead. And that worked. I lost another 35 pounds and reached my goals.

Now, at a stable good weight I'm trying deep nutritional ketosis for the control of my seizures with less medication.
Details for those who are interested :http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread64225.html

I'm now finally "getting" what the forum pundits were saying about "EAT MOAR FAT!". They were right except that was a simplistic way to put it. If they had said, "Eat a higher proportion of your calories as fat while keeping your protein moderate and your carbs low AND your total calorie intake in check", that would have been perfect.

But everyone kept telling me that calories didn't matter and that my body would just wonderfully "know" when to stop eating and that I should just "listen" to my body. Um, my body had just recovered from cancer and chemo at the time. It was too confused to be "telling" me anything that made sense.

Note to newbies: Read the book first.

So I dialed back the fat, reduced calories and powered through on lean protein, lots of it. And it worked. So I'm not knocking that approach.

I just can't tell you how much better I feel, however, while in deep ketosis. I feel like leaping tall buildings.

So, no, I am not saying that calorie counting should be tossed. Just that the two approaches, the "EAT MOAR FAT!" Camp and the "Calories Count so Count Your Calories Camp" need to be synthesized into one. Ketosis is the key that brings them together.

No, you can't eat unlimited quantities of food, regardless of macros, and expect to lose weight. Reality doesn't work that way. But eating ketogenic macros consistently over time makes it soooo much easier to limit portion sizes. I have to really push myself to make sure to eat enough so as not to lose too much more.

I think where a lot of Primals go wrong is in embracing all those yummy primal meats so much that we overdo the protein portion of the equation and thereby knock ourselves out of ketosis. Then, still trying to hold down the carbs, we get stuck in what Dr. Peter Attia of The Eating Academy calls the "Zone of Misery", not enough carbs to run on glucose but too much protein to allow for efficient metabolism of fat. Stuck in the middle and generally feeling like crap.

It seems to me that many people who say, "I can't do low carbs. I tried it and felt awful" perhaps could have gotten out of that Zone of Misery by dialing back the protein a bit. Maybe a filet mignon instead of a porterhouse for dinner.

So, to Barbara and anyone else who wants to know "what works for weight loss", the answer is , "a lot of things can work including the lean protein, limited calorie approach that I took". If the question is what works while making you feel invincible, the answer is ketosis.

[jojohaligo]

Thanks for sharing your experience. I am stuck at the moment... so I'll track again for awhile - eating more fat, watching the protein and carbs. I find it very easy get into ketosis and IFing for 18 hours once in awhile is also not a problem, but lately I have not been losing.

Also, this is a bit off topic - sort of, but the realization of the solution to the question not being either or, but being a combination of the two is a solution to many problems. I am part of a group that argues over the correctness of one way over the other, when meanwhile the solution is that it is not one way or the other, but when the two ways work together the result is better than one of the ways on its own, and no one had to be fighting for the rightness of one over the other....gosh I am sure that is as clear as mud!

[lexie]

If they had said, "Eat a higher proportion of your calories as fat while keeping your protein moderate and your carbs low AND your total calorie intake in check, that would have been perfect.

THIS. For me it's not calories or ratios, it's both. You have to find that sweet spot.

[Paleobird]

Thanks for sharing your experience. I am stuck at the moment... so I'll track again for awhile - eating more fat, watching the protein and carbs. I find it very easy get into ketosis and IFing for 18 hours once in awhile is also not a problem, but lately I have not been losing.

Also, this is a bit off topic - sort of, but the realization of the solution to the question not being either or, but being a combination of the two is a solution to many problems. I am part of a group that argues over the correctness of one way over the other, when meanwhile the solution is that it is not one way or the other, but when the two ways work together the result is better than one of the ways on its own, and no one had to be fighting for the rightness of one over the other....gosh I am sure that is as clear as mud!

THIS. For me it's not calories or ratios, it's both. You have to find that sweet spot.

Yes, This forum has spent far too much time and effort in the endless CICO Versus LC/HF debate. Why does it always have to be versus?

[BennettC]

Nice post. I remember when I first went low carb, I was told to drink heavy whipping cream as a source of fat. Gained bc I didn't realize how calorie dense that stuff is lol. Now I eat just eat more fatty cuts of meat, local eggs, and local raw dairy

[Paleobird]

Nice post. I remember when I first went low carb, I was told to drink heavy whipping cream as a source of fat. Gained bc I didn't realize how calorie dense that stuff is lol. Now I eat just eat more fatty cuts of meat, local eggs, and local raw dairy

Oooh raw cream is amazing tasting. But yes, it is so easy to overdo it when you are being told that calories magically go away in Primal-land and you can eat all the bacon you want. Liquid calories like HWC are really easy to overdo.

But this doesn't make HF/LC wrong, it just brings it back into reality. I find it very easy to be very satisfied with a small number of calories when running efficiently in ketosis.

[otzi]

Yes, This forum has spent far too much time and effort in the endless CICO Versus LC/HF debate. Why does it always have to be versus?

I hope this turns into a constructive thread as I plan on going into deep ketosis for the winter starting in late October. Someone posted this the other day. What makes a fat man fat? It contains a 1950's treatise on ketosis for curing obesity. It cites many studies from as far back as the 1700's, but these lines caught my attention:

"In 1850 the medical profession in Europe had accepted the theory of a German chemist, Baron Justus von Liebig (1803-1873), that carbohydrate and fat supplied the carbon which combined with oxygen in the lungs to produce body heat. In terms of this theory, carbohydrate and fat were "respiratory foods " and the cause of obesity was believed to be an over-indulgence in these: or as contemporary phraseology had it: "For the formation of body fat it is necessary that the materials be digested in greater quantity than is necessary to supply carbon to the respiration...."

The principle of the treatment of obesity based on this theory was to cut off as far as possible the supply of food, especially dietary fat, and to accomplish this the patient was exhorted to establish "an hourly watch over the instinctive desires," .i.e. was subjected to starvation."

As you see, the CICO debate goes waaaay back. But why? Who would stand to lose if we severly cut grains and sugar from our food supply?

[Penady]

Yeah, I overdid it with the bacon at first. Unlimited bacon, effortless weight loss? Sign me up. I gained five pounds before my ability to reason kicked back in. I don't strictly count calories, but I aim for a caloric deficit. It's easier for me to restrict calories following this WOE, because I really do feel more satisfied, my energy levels are fantastic, and I'm not ready to gnaw off an arm three hours after finishing a meal. I'm down eight pounds in the last month and feel like I have a little momentum going.

[Paleobird]

@Otzi
Interesting link. Thank you.
I have been researching ketosis from the epilepsy perspective and there is medical evidence there all the way back to the ancient Greeks. First they noticed that prolonged fasting caused a decrease in and even sometimes a cure of seizures. Ketosis is a way to achieve the benefits of fasting while still eating well.

Until anti-seizure drugs were invented, ketosis was pretty much the only therapy for epilepsy.

[Paleobird]

Yeah, I overdid it with the bacon at first. Unlimited bacon, effortless weight loss? Sign me up. I gained five pounds before my ability to reason kicked back in. I don't strictly count calories, but I aim for a caloric deficit. It's easier for me to restrict calories following this WOE, because I really do feel more satisfied, my energy levels are fantastic, and I'm not ready to gnaw off an arm three hours after finishing a meal. I'm down eight pounds in the last month and feel like I have a little momentum going.

Good progress. Yes, I think there is something in bacon that interferes with rational thought processes.