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Thread: EAT MOAR FAT! I'm finally GETTING it. page 63

  1. #621
    sbhikes's Avatar
    sbhikes is online now Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by adamm View Post
    Eh, what? I've been on a ketogenic diet for well over a year (minus two months where I experienced with slightly higher carbs) as a type 1 diabetic. I lift heavy 5 times a week fasted. Granted my lifting sessions are only around 45 - 55 minutes each, but I lift HEAVY. I have had no problem maintaining that, increasing both strength and muscle mass while on a very low carb diet.

    I mean for me a cheat day is eating meatballs with some of my home made tomato sauce (hey, tomatoes have a fair amount of carbs in 'em) which may take me up to 35 grams of carbs for the whole day.

    But back to my point, I feel great lifting heavy. It might be easier for me as I'm on a 5 day split (chest, back, arms, legs, shoulders) which gives me plenty of time for my muscles to replenish glycogen, but when I'm lifting, I feel great.

    --Me

    EDIT: and sbhikes, seriously, take a chill pill, you are pretty hostile methinks.
    I've been reading Leida long enough. She needs a wake-up call. But yeah, you're right. I shouldn't say anything.
    Last edited by sbhikes; 09-13-2012 at 10:29 AM. Reason: Woah, some weird quote appeared in my post
    Female, 5'3", 49, Starting weight: 163lbs. Current weight: 135 (more or less).
    Starting squat: 45lbs. Current squat: 180 x 2. Current Deadlift: 230 x 2

  2. #622
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewis View Post
    Maybe the need for salt is a temporary need during the switch to VLC? I don't know, but it seems like a possibility.
    thanks for the links Lewis. Very interesting thoughts. And yes, perhaps the switch to VLC does require more salt initially. I do remember the ketosis youtube video that I watched and the Dr. told his group of patients that they needed to drink broth for the first few weeks to help the transition.

    But on the other hand, I remember in the Art of LowCarb Living book that they talked about how our kidneys process salt differently, getting rid of it more quickly and not holding on to salt. That said, since sodium is critical for our bodies to function, it wouldn't make sense for them to not have some sort of mechanism for conserving the salt we eat. Perhaps when we've been in ketosis for a while, we just are efficient at excreting the extra we consume?

  3. #623
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    I decided to just go with the whole salad thing. If I feel like having a big huge salad, then that's what I will have. So last night I had a big salad for dinner and felt pretty good in the morning. So I went off to work with just coffee with a modest amount of cream and some bone broth for breakfast. I managed to go all through the entire morning without a real meal and ate a big salad with a can of sardines in oil as "dressing" for lunch. My calories are way lower than previous days and my macros are 80% fat, 7% carbs thus far. I think I'm going to roll with this for a while, gut flora running the show or not. I started this diet hating big salads and now suddenly I like them.
    Female, 5'3", 49, Starting weight: 163lbs. Current weight: 135 (more or less).
    Starting squat: 45lbs. Current squat: 180 x 2. Current Deadlift: 230 x 2

  4. #624
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    The Robb Wolf podcast has a good question today about ketosis and thyroid issues. He associates apparent thyroid issues with ketogenic diets with actual cortisol issues. He suggests that the cortisol issues arise because of loose dietary parameters that lead people to take in too much protein and not enough fat to stay in ketosis, resulting in the release of cortisol to manage the resultant blood sugar changes. He reckons it's the cortisol that creates the thyroid symptoms. It made interesting listening, and was consistent with Phinney and Volek's perspective about being in a low-carb hell if you eat too much protein or too many carbs. From the transcript:

    "What I see happen for a lot of people is that they start kind of migrating
    out of a ketogenic ratio of a relatively low protein intake much, much
    higher than fat intake and they start getting into this middle ground – this
    no man’s land where they’re eating enough protein to produce glucose in
    the liver. And then they start running a little bit more off of glucose but this
    glucose is very transient. They aren’t eating enough fat to consistently
    stay in ketosis. So they’re not producing enough ketone bodies to run the
    brain and to run some of the other organs.
    And so during this kind of in-between land, then starts causing the liver
    or the body to produce cortisol to release carbohydrates out of the liver.
    To release glucose out of the liver."

    Wolf also said that a similar effect can happen if you start a programme like crossfit, because its aim is glycogen depletion - so anaerobic activity also induces the cortisol effect.

    His answer is more complex than I've said here - it's worth listening to. The transcript has some serious issues with word replacements that are sometimes the exact opposite to what he said, so it's not a good idea to rely on just that. Best to listen as well.

    It raised another question for me, though - if it can take 2 - 4 weeks to get into deep nutritional ketosis, then doesn't a cyclic ketogenic programme mean that you never really get into a ketogenic state? I hear that it's working for some people, but I think for me it'd be the definition of low carb hell - it takes me a full 7-8 days to get the physiological and psychological effects of ketosis, and even longer to see the results on the scale.
    Started Feb 18 2011

    Journalling here

    "There's a difference between knowing the path, and walking the path" - Morpheus

  5. #625
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jac View Post
    The Robb Wolf podcast has a good question today about ketosis and thyroid issues. He associates apparent thyroid issues with ketogenic diets with actual cortisol issues. He suggests that the cortisol issues arise because of loose dietary parameters that lead people to take in too much protein and not enough fat to stay in ketosis, resulting in the release of cortisol to manage the resultant blood sugar changes. He reckons it's the cortisol that creates the thyroid symptoms. It made interesting listening, and was consistent with Phinney and Volek's perspective about being in a low-carb hell if you eat too much protein or too many carbs. From the transcript:

    "What I see happen for a lot of people is that they start kind of migrating
    out of a ketogenic ratio of a relatively low protein intake much, much
    higher than fat intake and they start getting into this middle ground – this
    no man’s land where they’re eating enough protein to produce glucose in
    the liver. And then they start running a little bit more off of glucose but this
    glucose is very transient. They aren’t eating enough fat to consistently
    stay in ketosis. So they’re not producing enough ketone bodies to run the
    brain and to run some of the other organs.
    And so during this kind of in-between land, then starts causing the liver
    or the body to produce cortisol to release carbohydrates out of the liver.
    To release glucose out of the liver."

    Wolf also said that a similar effect can happen if you start a programme like crossfit, because its aim is glycogen depletion - so anaerobic activity also induces the cortisol effect.

    His answer is more complex than I've said here - it's worth listening to. The transcript has some serious issues with word replacements that are sometimes the exact opposite to what he said, so it's not a good idea to rely on just that. Best to listen as well.

    It raised another question for me, though - if it can take 2 - 4 weeks to get into deep nutritional ketosis, then doesn't a cyclic ketogenic programme mean that you never really get into a ketogenic state? I hear that it's working for some people, but I think for me it'd be the definition of low carb hell - it takes me a full 7-8 days to get the physiological and psychological effects of ketosis, and even longer to see the results on the scale.
    I think this is what Paleobird was referring to in her first post of this thread and I think this is where I was stuck for awhile and felt like something wasn't right. I had cut back on fat a bit and wasn't paying to close of attention to carb or protein intake and was stuck in this in between state. Now that I have upped my fat, lowered my carbs, and moderated my protein I'm feeling right again. It's not hard to do and makes all the difference.

  6. #626
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    I think the quote that it takes 2-4 weeks to get into ketosis refers only to people who are beginning this change in eating style. If you have always. been a sugar burner, it takes the body awhile to transition to burning fat effectively for primary fuel. Once you become fat adapted, I believe it is no problem to shift in and out of ketosis.

  7. #627
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    Quote Originally Posted by healthy11 View Post
    I think this is what Paleobird was referring to in her first post of this thread and I think this is where I was stuck for awhile and felt like something wasn't right. I had cut back on fat a bit and wasn't paying to close of attention to carb or protein intake and was stuck in this in between state. Now that I have upped my fat, lowered my carbs, and moderated my protein I'm feeling right again. It's not hard to do and makes all the difference.
    Yes, what Robb is calling the "no man's land" is what Dr Attia on the Eating Academy calls "the zone of misery".

    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Understood View Post
    I think the quote that it takes 2-4 weeks to get into ketosis refers only to people who are beginning this change in eating style. If you have always. been a sugar burner, it takes the body awhile to transition to burning fat effectively for primary fuel. Once you become fat adapted, I believe it is no problem to shift in and out of ketosis.
    Right again. But it takes a while to become fully adapted. It takes Jac longer to see results right now because she is still working on healing a lot of metabolic damage.

  8. #628
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post
    . . . it takes a while to become fully adapted. It takes Jac longer to see results right now because she is still working on healing a lot of metabolic damage.
    Ah-ha, so the 'time to ketosis' is another area that I can hope for healing!! Awesome. I have fond hopes of being able to include sweet potato and seasonal fruit in my life one day. If I live that long
    Started Feb 18 2011

    Journalling here

    "There's a difference between knowing the path, and walking the path" - Morpheus

  9. #629
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    After the potato months it still took me 2 full weeks to get back into the zone. I might not be in the zone right now, I'm not sure. It seems kind of hard to keep protein so low.

    That is interesting about the coritsol and thyroid on a higher protein low carb diet.

    I feel somewhat conflicted by all this since being fairly muscular I get hungry for meat.
    Female, 5'3", 49, Starting weight: 163lbs. Current weight: 135 (more or less).
    Starting squat: 45lbs. Current squat: 180 x 2. Current Deadlift: 230 x 2

  10. #630
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes View Post
    After the potato months it still took me 2 full weeks to get back into the zone. I might not be in the zone right now, I'm not sure. It seems kind of hard to keep protein so low.

    That is interesting about the coritsol and thyroid on a higher protein low carb diet.

    I feel somewhat conflicted by all this since being fairly muscular I get hungry for meat.
    I think this cortisol link is the key to explaining the zone of misery. If you are sort of eating a keto diet in that you are keeping your carbs realy low but your protein is high enough to knock you out, this is going to be very stressful for your body. You won't have much glucose lying around to burn but you won't be switching over to fat burning either. Sustained elevated cortisol levels are also the problem with over training.

    I think a lot of the wanting moar meat is not really about biological need but rather the forbidden for so long fruit that is now allowed, even encouraged on Primal. Yippee! I'll have a 24oz porterhouse! Well, I really would have been fine with the 8oz filet.

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