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Thread: EAT MOAR FAT! I'm finally GETTING it. page 42

  1. #411
    Lewis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post
    Oh, cute, Lewis. Your elderly Ethiopian friend, Lucy
    Yeah.

    Serious post on this one, though.

    I finally got round to listening to the latest of Jimmy Moore's Ask the Low-carb Experts. This episode would seem to have a bearing on "How much protein for women?" -- or anyone.

    24: All Things Protein (Protein 101) | Dr. Donald Layman | Jimmy Moore Presents: Ask The Low-Carb Experts

    It was noisy, and there were people going in and out, and I should probably listen again. But ... I made him out to say that, while his research team considers a figure of ideal bodymass in kg x 1.4 or 1.5 to give a good working figure, no adult should consume less than 90 grams per day. You can have a little more, if you're very large or very active, but less, they think, is not best.

    They also think that it is important to split your protein evenly. So on three meals (probably best for most people) that would be 30g - 30g - 30g. The reason is that the protein consumption itself, he says, has an anabolic effect. Very active people, he suggests may, however, be fine on just two meals a day, breakfast and dinner, eating 45 g at each -- because their activity itself has an anabolic effect.

    (Of course, 30 g of protein is going to equate to around 4 oz. (113 grams) of meat.)

    Now his reasons were quite interesting. If I didn't mishear -- as I say my listening conditions were less than ideal -- he pointed out that the volume of blood is much the same whatever one's size. And what seems to be important is the signalling and hormonal responses that go on. In particular, it seems to be the concentration of leucine in the blood that is crucial. I made him out to say that unless your protein intake is over the minimum threshold, it won't be used for body-building purposes. That won't get switched on. Instead it will be used for fuel. This is why he recommends sufficient protein, and enough at each and every meal.

    This, he said, is why current practice in the U.S. is bad -- because people take very little protein at breakfast, and not much more at lunch, getting almost all of it in at dinner. That misses two anabolic opportunities.

    Interesting, huh?

    Now I suppose that people have their own favourite macronutrients, and since this guy studies protein, that's probably his.

    But maybe it's possible that people giving very low figures -- Dr. Rosedale or Dr. Kwasniewksi, for example -- have gone too low.

    Maybe calculations based on bodyweight have their uses but nevertheless there is a lower limit even for rather small people.

    And, again, I didn't get to listen to him in peace, and it's obviously a somewhat controversial area in which different opinions prevail. But maybe worth throwing in there?
    Last edited by Lewis; 09-05-2012 at 11:53 AM. Reason: spelling

  2. #412
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    My N=1 tells me that the bit about only absorbing so much protein per meal is bunk. I often eat only once a day, and add muscle easily. Granted, there a plenty of explanations for this. My body might be building muscle, but not directly from the excess protein. Or the HGH or fasted state is modifying my body in ways that I don't understand yet. But I think the most likely explanation is that, because I eat all my fat and meat together, digestion is slowed enough to fully digest the meat. When I first went paleo I remember pooping whole chunks of steak and puddles of grease. Then I adapted, and I actually break it all down now.

    So spreading out the protein to three meals is not necessary for everyone.


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  3. #413
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    I am actually the happiest when I eat at least 100 g protein a day, and I like heaving protein with every meal. These calculations are always so much harder for a female, because they are based off the world of the body builders where 2,000 calories is seen as a large caloric deficit. 90 g protein from the reverse formula Paleobird is looking at would give you a 200 lbs person. Which is great for a muscular 6 feet tall guy.... Though with ~ 1500 calories, it is relatively easy to reconcile 100 g protein and 70% fat intake. It gets tricky at 1300, artificial at 1200, and nearly impossible at 1000 and less.
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  4. #414
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    Hi Leida, I checked your height and ran it on the Dr. JK calculations a few days ago, and also had a quick look at your physical activity in your journal.
    With a 1.5 multiplier for protein (which would suit your activity) you get an allowance of 90gm per day.
    Carbs at 30gm, and then fat can go up to 200ish.
    That gives you a calorie allowance of just under 2300.!

    Also I'd suggest boosting breakfast with some meat. It might help with that wishy-washy feeling.

  5. #415
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    Quote Originally Posted by PureFunctionalFitness View Post
    The Big Book Of Endurance by Phil Maffetone is the up to date one, available on the Amazon website
    Next on my reading list.

    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes View Post
    Leida, you sound like you are having carb withdrawl.
    Exactly. It is a transitional stage. Stay with it and, as the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy says, don't panic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leida View Post
    Ye gods, I hope I don't have to do that. I will try eating more coconut oil. If I have to drink cream, I might as well just give up now. But I really miss food.
    There is also coconut manna, fakes, cream, etc. Good stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by PureFunctionalFitness View Post
    The max working HR of 180-age is the top end aerobic HR that Maffetone recommends to stay in an aerobic zone that encourages good levels of aerobic adaptation, but where you use fat as the primary fuel source and reduce the risk on stress on your body that can lead to illness and injury.

    Just to re-iterate, the Maffetone formula has no correlation with anyone's maximum achievable heart rate, whether estimated or known through maximal testing.

    It can all get a bit confusing, so I hope this sets the record straight :-)
    Thank you for that clarification.

    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes View Post
    Just give yourself permission to eat too many calories during the adaptation process.

    - Pate is good and you can make it with cream, butter and even various fats. I'm going to make it with bone marrow one of these days.
    - Pesto
    - Bacon
    - Fancy oils drizzled on avocados, cheese, salad or vegetables
    - Olives
    - Sundried tomatoes in olive oil
    - Sardines eaten with all the olive oil
    - fatty cheeses
    - bone marrow eaten as-is
    - lard/tallow

    Add any of these oily, fatty things to other foods. You don't have to go to excess, just make everything gourmet and delicious.
    - Salmon with pesto gets raves in my house
    - Top anything with the items above. Mix and match for lettuce wrap meals. Pesto with walnut oil and goat cheese on lettuce wraps was my lunch yesterday.
    - Bacon with all the grease in the spaghetti sauce poured over sauteed zucchini noodles gets raves in my house
    - An egg breakfast casserole chock full of sausage and liberal leftover beef fat got me lots of raves at a potluck. The secret ingredient? "Love" (lard ha ha).

    Gotta get creative! I'm sure Paleobird is way better at this than me. I'm just a rudimentary cook. A baby in the kitchen.
    Thanks, SB. Good list. I would add the Free the Animal Fat Bread to the list (No matter how big a jerk Richard may be, that bread is still amazing.) And don't forget the avocados.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leida View Post
    Yep, I know, but coconut is the only fatty flavor so far that I don't mind, that and drippings from roasted meats. I have never liked anything olive related (I grew up with unrefined sunflower stuff that you can't get here)
    I do like sardines, but I am forbidden to eat them in the office, and at home, I would rather eat real meat or fish than canned goods.
    So, yeah, coconut milk and cheeses are my fav fats.
    I get sunflower oil and tahini at a middle eastern market. I don't know if that is available where you live.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewis View Post
    I finally got round to listening to the latest of Jimmy Moore's Ask the Low-carb Experts. This episode would seem to have a bearing on "How much protein for women?" -- or anyone.

    24: All Things Protein (Protein 101) | Dr. Donald Layman | Jimmy Moore Presents: Ask The Low-Carb Experts

    Ideal bodymass in kg x 1.4 or 1.5 to give a good working figure, no adult should consume less than 90 grams per day. You can have a little more, if you're very large or very active, but less, they think, is not best.

    They also think that it is important to split your protein evenly. So on three meals (probably best for most people) that would be 30g - 30g - 30g. The reason is that the protein consumption itself, he says, has an anabolic effect. Very active people, he suggests may, however, be fine on just two meals a day, breakfast and dinner, eating 45 g at each -- because their activity itself has an anabolic effect.

    But maybe it's possible that people giving very low figures -- Dr. Rosedale or Dr. Kwasniewksi, for example -- have gone too low.
    Maybe calculations based on bodyweight have their uses but nevertheless there is a lower limit even for rather small people.
    But maybe worth throwing in there?
    That's interesting. We will have to add that to the growing list of experts with formulas. I really think there is something to be said for using the formulas as a starting point but then finding your own "perfect numbers" by the N=1 method.

  6. #416
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    Heya, thank you. I was looking at PB's calculator which was for the ideal weight, but I guess I did not add the activity modifier for the protein. My activity is not as vigorous as it would appear on paper since I am not a champion material at all, so I don't burn like Phelps, heh. 2,300 would be a touch high unless it is maintenance, lol (~ 1500-1700 is about right to lose weight for me). Anyway, even a CW nutritionist told me once that calculators are good for eye-balling, but knowing thyself is the best!
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  7. #417
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leida View Post
    Heya, thank you. I was looking at PB's calculator which was for the ideal weight, but I guess I did not add the activity modifier for the protein. My activity is not as vigorous as it would appear on paper since I am not a champion material at all, so I don't burn like Phelps, heh. 2,300 would be a touch high unless it is maintenance, lol (~ 1500-1700 is about right to lose weight for me). Anyway, even a CW nutritionist told me once that calculators are good for eye-balling, but knowing thyself is the best!
    Just remember that it is a two step process. Fat adaptation first. THEN calorie restriction while maintaining keto ratios IF you even need to lose weight (which it doesn't seem like you really do to me). In any case, focus on getting adapted first.

  8. #418
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    I get sunflower oil and tahini at a middle eastern market. I don't know if that is available where you live.
    We might, I will take a look at the east Indian grocery. Never thought ME as a source for the real sunflower oil. One of my co-workers goes to the Polish Deli to get the 'real' thing, IIRC, but I was under the impression sunflower was no good (since it fell into the category of the dreaded vegetable oils) until Mark's recent article. Luckily, they sell Nutiva coconut oil in my department store & creamed coconut in the international food isle. I bought tahini once, but ended up throwing the jar away after it went rancid. I much prefer sesame oil for flavoring & hubby loves it, but, again, the concern for seed as a source, seeds being toxic and yada-yada-yada....
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  9. #419
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    Thought it might also be of interest in this thread, Study: Not all calories are created equal - CBS News
    Subjects on a ketogenic diet in this study, burned 360 cal a day more....

  10. #420
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    Thought it might also be of interest in this thread, Study: Not all calories are created equal - CBS News
    Subjects on a ketogenic diet in this study, burned 360 cal a day more....

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