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Thread: EAT MOAR FAT! I'm finally GETTING it. page 15

  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewis View Post
    Two hour (!) interview of Steve Phinney by .... Jimmy 85% fat Moore:

    23: Long-Term Stalls & Weight Gain Even On A Well-Formulated Low-Carb Diet | Dr. Stephen Phinney | Jimmy Moore Presents: Ask The Low-Carb Experts

    I guess it would be relevant to this thread.

    It's got some interesting stuff in it. Jimmy apparently says that it is his favourite interview out of all the ones he's done.

    Steve Phinney, AFAIK, has been in ketosis for seven years now. Says he can cycle for hours on it.

    It's interesting how a lot of people at this site kind of bridge the paleo and low-carb worlds. I guess Mark does to some extent, too. I think what paleo and what people like Steve Phinney are doing don't quite mesh, although they are very similar in many ways -- and both are interested in ancestral diets. (c.f., for example, Dr. Jay Wortman's interest in traditional First Nations diets.)

    The "safe starches" thing can be put on one side -- inasmuch as while it upsets a lot of people in the paleosphere, it's going against "official paleo" anyway. But official paleo is still fairly high-fruit friendly and is high rather than moderate protein. Professor Cordain's figures on protein suggest anything up to about 30% of total calories as protein (and up to 40% carbs). (That's based on calculations and estimates based on reported animal and plant food ratios in the diets of contemporary hunter-gatherers.)

    It's interesting that in that podcast a lot of callers have experimented with paleo, and are doing relatively high protein, and Phinney's first advice to them is to cut that back.

    But there are a of different things in there. Jimmy Moore made a list of bullet points as "takeaways" for people and there were over two hundred of them.
    Strange, he also says fasting or having 2 meals a day is terrible for you and makes you lose muscle mass.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post

    This is true. Man does not live by sticks of butter alone. I think a lot of the reports of adverse "side effects" that were blamed on keto are actually vitamin and mineral deficiencies. Like the urban legend that will not die about keto making your hair fall out. A deficiency in certain minerals does make your hair fall out. Donm't blame that on the keto, eat some liver. My hair has never felt better.

    ht.
    Quote Originally Posted by CleoCat View Post
    The only con for me is that my hair was (and still is a little) shedding like crazy. Had my thyroid tested and it's all normal.
    I suppose I'd like to go back to VLC in the winter, as there won't be much fresh fruit available, but I'm kind of on the fence.

    So, any of you VLC peeps have had this problem?


    That is the number one side effect I get from ketosis. My hair falls out. I was eating liver and kidney and even went through boat loads of supplements from biotin, kelp, nac, b vitamins, zinc and amino supplements. Nothing stops it besides eating fruit and starch. I re-tried ketosis again a few months and got the same effects.
    Last edited by Forgotmylastusername; 08-29-2012 at 08:40 PM.

  2. #142
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    That 5lbs for every inch over 5' puts me at 115. The weight charts in 17 Magazine when I was a teenager said the same thing. Wow, that's really super light! I once had a boyfriend who picked me up and he was like woah! He almost dropped me. He had no idea I was so heavy. Iron for bones, yeah. I totally relate to that.

    Yet even if I use that weight as my target, it's way more fat than I'm able to eat on those calculations. Keeping the protein low is kind of a challenge, too. I tend toward about 100g on most days, and as low as 50 on others. I kind of don't care though because I can feel the effects of the low carbs anyway. I've been keeping them below 20 net carbs most days.

    I really don't feel like I'm missing anything vitamin-wise. If anything, I'm actually getting a better class of vegetables and a bigger variety of things because I have to get creative within the limitations. Pesto was a recent thing, having nuts, olive oil, concentrated greens. Plus then there's all the odd meats like bone broth, bone marrow (if you can call that a meat), tongue, liver, pig's tail, kidney (ew) and the common ones like salmon with bones and skin. I can't say I'm worried about vitamins at all.
    Female, 5'3", 49, Starting weight: 163lbs. Current weight: 135 (more or less).
    Starting squat: 45lbs. Current squat: 170 x 3. Current Deadlift: 220 x 3

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by gempdx44 View Post
    So interesting this ideal weight stuff. With the 5 pounds for every inch formula, I should weigh 125. I would look sickly at that weight. I am currently 150 pounds and wear a size 4/6. I am muscular with an hourglass shape. Dr. Jan puts my HSIS weight at 143, which is near my goal of 140. I know other women who are 5'5" and weigh much less than me and I am always like WTF? Was I born with iron bars in my bones or what?
    A lot of things can factor in such as the fact that Primal eating improves your bone density. So you do get heavier bones.

    Quote Originally Posted by the_puma View Post
    Those formulas are weird... at the first formula I'm supposed to be 125 (which is around where I was last time I weighed myself but pretty sure I gained weight since then and I don't weigh myself often), the second puts me at 67 kg which is 147 and pretty sure I would be overweight at that point.

    I am always concerned about how much fat I am eating. My carbs are low-ish (probably 75-80 most days), I definitely get enough protein for LBM (90-100g/day) and then the rest is fat. I recently cut out some nuts because they were adding to it plus upsetting my stomach so now I just eat eggs, lean meat for the most part (chicken thighs are not terribly lean for example), avocados (is 1 a day too much??) and use butter for cooking. This is such a weird science...
    Then there is Mark's formula which makes you figure out your lean body mass. For me at 150 and 20%bf that is 120 then that number x .7 = 84grams of protein/day. But that is not trying for deep ketosis, just for being "fat adapted". By Dr JK's numbers I should be getting between 62-75 grams per day. Dialing back the protein has made all the difference in how I feel.

    Quote Originally Posted by RitaRose View Post
    I was thinking the same thing. It puts me at 130, which looks awful on me. A good weght for me on CW 140, and on Primal is 145. I'm wondering how much these numbers take into account muscle.
    Yeah, I think picking an "ideal" weight has got to have a personalized and totally subjective component to it. I think my ideal is 150 not 180.

    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes View Post
    That 5lbs for every inch over 5' puts me at 115. The weight charts in 17 Magazine when I was a teenager said the same thing. Wow, that's really super light! I once had a boyfriend who picked me up and he was like woah! He almost dropped me. He had no idea I was so heavy. Iron for bones, yeah. I totally relate to that.

    Yet even if I use that weight as my target, it's way more fat than I'm able to eat on those calculations. Keeping the protein low is kind of a challenge, too. I tend toward about 100g on most days, and as low as 50 on others. I kind of don't care though because I can feel the effects of the low carbs anyway. I've been keeping them below 20 net carbs most days.

    I really don't feel like I'm missing anything vitamin-wise. If anything, I'm actually getting a better class of vegetables and a bigger variety of things because I have to get creative within the limitations. Pesto was a recent thing, having nuts, olive oil, concentrated greens. Plus then there's all the odd meats like bone broth, bone marrow (if you can call that a meat), tongue, liver, pig's tail, kidney (ew) and the common ones like salmon with bones and skin. I can't say I'm worried about vitamins at all.
    Hiking will give you dense bones too. You are counting with net carbs? I'm working with total carbs. Yet another factor in the numbers game.

  4. #144
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    Just raising my hand here to say I'm trying it, too. I have major gut issues and find it almost impossible to lose weight in a sustainable way (I guess I'd lose if I just stopped eating ), so ketosis is a combination of last-ditch weight loss effort and a mechanism to reliably control IBS. I was starting to work, then I went overseas for a week and couldn't keep it up, dammit. I restarted 3 days ago. I felt great before, and actually lost just over 2kg as well as being symptom free. Can't wait til it kicks in again!!
    Started Feb 18 2011

    Journalling here

    "There's a difference between knowing the path, and walking the path" - Morpheus

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forgotmylastusername View Post
    That is the number one side effect I get from ketosis. My hair falls out. I was eating liver and kidney and even went through boat loads of supplements from biotin, kelp, nac, b vitamins, zinc and amino supplements. Nothing stops it besides eating fruit and starch. I re-tried ketosis again a few months and got the same effects.
    I can't argue with subjective experience because this is reality for you.

    However, there are a lot of things in the "boatload of supplements" you were taking which could have been giving you a reaction, (capsules, binders etc.). You could actually have had an "overdose" of some vitamin/mineral or some imbalance between them. This is why I just get my nutrition from food not supps. Just about impossible to screw it up that way.

    I know that keto=hair loss is what you believe you experienced but I'm not buying that there wasn't another cause you didn't see.

    If the fruit and starch work for you, cool. All they do for me is make me fat, puffy and craving more of the things that make me fat and puffy.
    Again, there is the YoungFitDude factor at work as well. You can probably deal with a whole lot more carbs than I can with no ill effects and you have no reason to do keto. It's not for everybody. Maybe 20 years from now when your metabolism isn't running like a freight train, you might want to revisit the keto concept. Who knows?

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jac View Post
    Just raising my hand here to say I'm trying it, too. I have major gut issues and find it almost impossible to lose weight in a sustainable way (I guess I'd lose if I just stopped eating ), so ketosis is a combination of last-ditch weight loss effort and a mechanism to reliably control IBS. I was starting to work, then I went overseas for a week and couldn't keep it up, dammit. I restarted 3 days ago. I felt great before, and actually lost just over 2kg as well as being symptom free. Can't wait til it kicks in again!!
    That was 4.5ish pounds plus IBS free. That's not a bad result at all. How long a stretch did you do before you went overseas?

  7. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes View Post

    My only complaint is that I wish I could find a way to be more carb-agnostic and keep this great super-low-carb feeling because a) it's so easy to fall out of this and b) so hard to get back.
    Amen to that!
    Using low lectin/nightshade free primal to control autoimmune arthritis. (And lost 50 lbs along the way )

    http://www.krispin.com/lectin.html

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post
    I can't argue with subjective experience because this is reality for you.

    However, there are a lot of things in the "boatload of supplements" you were taking which could have been giving you a reaction, (capsules, binders etc.). You could actually have had an "overdose" of some vitamin/mineral or some imbalance between them. This is why I just get my nutrition from food not supps. Just about impossible to screw it up that way.

    I know that keto=hair loss is what you believe you experienced but I'm not buying that there wasn't another cause you didn't see.

    If the fruit and starch work for you, cool. All they do for me is make me fat, puffy and craving more of the things that make me fat and puffy.
    Again, there is the YoungFitDude factor at work as well. You can probably deal with a whole lot more carbs than I can with no ill effects and you have no reason to do keto. It's not for everybody. Maybe 20 years from now when your metabolism isn't running like a freight train, you might want to revisit the keto concept. Who knows?
    The supplements weren't taken at once but I did end up trying a lot of different supplements I was told should help, one after the other and it didn't improve. It is something you see a lot in the Atkins and low carb forums. I tried lots of things because it was so depressing. I even re-tried ketosis again without lots of supps not long ago to see if there was anything I was doing wrong the first time and I got the exact same effect. I definitely stuck it out a long time and tried different things but the only thing that works is staying well out of ketosis. Maybe it has different effects on younger or certain types of people, but it's defintely a stressor on my body.

  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forgotmylastusername View Post
    The supplements weren't taken at once but I did end up trying a lot of different supplements I was told should help, one after the other and it didn't improve. It is something you see a lot in the Atkins and low carb forums. I tried lots of things because it was so depressing. I even re-tried ketosis again without lots of supps not long ago to see if there was anything I was doing wrong the first time and I got the exact same effect. I definitely stuck it out a long time and tried different things but the only thing that works is staying well out of ketosis. Maybe it has different effects on younger or certain types of people, but it's defintely a stressor on my body.
    Hmm. That's interesting that you feel it is a stressor. In my body it feels like the ultimate in stress relief. It feels like a just dropped a big backpack that I've been lugging around and I suddenly feel so light like I'm walking on the moon (A la Sting and the Police).

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post
    That was 4.5ish pounds plus IBS free. That's not a bad result at all. How long a stretch did you do before you went overseas?
    Only about 7 days. Like you, I felt like it was a huge stress off my body. Even with the fruit I ate while I was away I have still been sleeping really well.
    Started Feb 18 2011

    Journalling here

    "There's a difference between knowing the path, and walking the path" - Morpheus

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