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Thread: EAT MOAR FAT! I'm finally GETTING it. page 14

  1. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leida View Post
    So, if I add cream (say the Double Cream even) to quark like the Germans do, it should be good? I just prefer quark because I make it myself as opposite to cheese someone else makes?
    I've never had quark but it sounds interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Owly View Post
    Interestingly, I haven't needed to be full-on keto to stay metabolically flexible, but I don't eat excess carbs either. I think you can avoid becoming sugar dependent if you have a healthy metabolism that can handle carbs without setting off binging or other issues *and* you do not regularly consume carbs beyond what will replenish glycogen stores (so that you don't begin to burn sugar preferentially to clear the excess from circulation). Doing this seems to allow me to use fat as fuel when needed while still eating moderate quantities of carbohydrates.
    Very true. In a heathy person not looking to lose weight (or control epilepsy) this works fine. I don't want to come a cross as saying that everybody must be in ketosis all the time to be healthy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewis View Post
    Actually, I think I made the same point about modern hunter-gatherers and marginal land here on this board a long time ago and before "archevore" did on his site. But i don't bother with his site any more. I'm surprised you do since you seem a full-blown keto-girl and, AFAIK, he's gone carb-monster. :-)
    Kurt Harris is a smart guy. And he has always profess to be "agnostic" when it comes to the optimal macros for any one person.

    Quote Originally Posted by sjmc View Post
    Well yeah I'd agree -- but maybe 30g of carbs wasn't sufficiently low to put them all in ketosis. I mean n=1, right? ; p As I understand it, the general advice for getting into ketosis is <20.
    Not necessarily. Take your ideal weight in kilos and divide by 2. that is your target carb grams (upper end).

    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes View Post
    It lasted only 6 weeks. And I don't see anywhere where it says in the abstract what calories they were required to eat.

    Also, we've been discussing way more than just how much weight we lose. We've been talking about the energy we feel, the mental acuity we have, the physical stamina for aerobic exercise (and if we haven't said anything like that, let me tell you I just went jogging for the first time in months and felt incredible, absolute unlimited energy, and at noon in the hot sun before I had my breakfast). Or how about the feelings of well-being many of us have, the steady-state mood, the tendency to smile more and feel kinder toward others, less grouchy. Or what about not having any seizures? Or the freedom from cravings and the flexibility to miss a meal unexpectedly and not freak out or white-knuckle through it until we can get to some food. These things are important, too.

    This is not just about weight loss or who can lose the most weight the fastest. This is about feeling great and if needed, losing weight without suffering.
    Well said.

    Quote Originally Posted by relaygirl View Post
    This is how I feel too! Even clearer than before when I went paleo. The energy and freedom from cravings is awesome. It is difficult for me to get enough food and limit the protein though. I am re reading Nora Gedgaudas as well to get more insight.

    I also can feel my body composition changing. I am definitely retaining more muscle. I am wearing clothes that only fit me at 135 before and I am at 150 and I have a lot more definition than I had. I don't look emaciated like I did when I initially lost most of my weight. I am much warmer as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by oxide View Post
    I don't quite understand ketosis and don't feel the need to be there.
    Just tryyyyyy eeeet.

    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes View Post
    Stackingplates, you are really very invested in ensuring people don't use a ketogenic diet. However, nobody who does use one is pushing it on you. We are all merely describing how much better it works for us. Do you have an agenda? Because you are starting to remind me of that pro soybean guy in that other thread. Maybe you can keep your scare-mongering to yourself. The silly things you bring up are totally unfounded and I could find you as many articles demonstrating whatever I want as you can find showing whatever the heck you want. You can start by reading the Eating Academy and Protein Power websites if you want to see the stuff I'd link to here. All I can think of is you must have an agenda. Even Mark insists he won't budge on the whole carb curve thing because of all the powerful testimonials he gets day in and day out. Anyway, aren't there some metal plates that need stacking somewhere?
    Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by otzi View Post
    N=20, 6 weeks, completely different outcome than study posted by Stacking Dishes
    A Ketogenic Diet Favorably Affects Serum Biomarkers for Cardiovascular Disease in Normal-Weight Men

    CONCLUSION: Numerous studies now suggest that high-carbohydrate diets can raise TAG levels, create small, dense LDL particles, and reduce HDL cholesterol (i.e., atherogenic dyslipidemia)—a combination along with insulin resistance, that has been termed syndrome X (42,43). Syndrome X is postulated to be resistance to insulin-mediated glucose disposal by muscle (44), 30% of adult males and 10% to 15% of postmenopausal women have this particular syndrome X profile, which is associated with several-fold increase in heart disease risk. Replacing saturated fat with carbohydrate appears to accentuate insulin concentrations and the atherogenic dyslipidemia associated with syndrome X (44,45). The ketogenic diet in this study resulted in favorable responses in fasting TAG, postprandial lipemia, HDL-C, LDL particle size, and insulin levels in healthy normolipidemic men. Although the duration of the diet was short (6 wk), these data suggest that a ketogenic diet does not have an adverse effect on accepted biochemical risk factors for CVD and improves those associated with syndrome X.
    Yep, there is a study to fit every pre-conception available if you look for it. I am done looking outward. I'm doing N=1 and I feel excellent. That will never be data in a study and I don't care.

    Quote Originally Posted by otzi View Post
    In all seriousness, though, I think the danger with a ketogenic diet is in ignoring nutrition. You won't get proper nutrients if you are just eating bacon and steak. I think one must consume large quantities of seafood, offal, non-starchy vegetables/seaweed, bone broth, coconut, mushrooms, etc... to get your daily requirements.

    I was planning some menus and started using FitDay to track my RDAs, it has a good calculator even on the free version. I try to shoot for at least 100% on most nutrients.
    This is true. Man does not live by sticks of butter alone. I think a lot of the reports of adverse "side effects" that were blamed on keto are actually vitamin and mineral deficiencies. Like the urban legend that will not die about keto making your hair fall out. A deficiency in certain minerals does make your hair fall out. Donm't blame that on the keto, eat some liver. My hair has never felt better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Fireling View Post
    Ugh at my size this is only about 1100 calories a day .

    I think I'm actually going to have to have a few days where I actually work out exactly what I eat and get the macros right so I have a better idea of what I'm doing, rather than just winging it. I am pretty certain I eat more than that... (although I guess I can start with the fat a little higher and see what happens?? If I'm cutting down too much I'll get the urge to binge, and I want to avoid entering that cycle if I can).
    Did you try figuring at the top end of the ranges. Also you may be underestimating your HSIS weight. The formula Dr. Kwasniewski uses fro HSIS is your height in centimeters minus 100 = your HSIS weight in kilos. For me, I think that is a little too high but work the numbers through that way and see what you get.

    Quote Originally Posted by CleoCat View Post
    The only con for me is that my hair was (and still is a little) shedding like crazy. Had my thyroid tested and it's all normal.
    I suppose I'd like to go back to VLC in the winter, as there won't be much fresh fruit available, but I'm kind of on the fence.

    So, any of you VLC peeps have had this problem?
    See above. Have yourself tested for vitamin and mineral deficiencies. Or just eat some liver.

    Quote Originally Posted by gempdx44 View Post
    Thank you for starting this thread, Paleobird! I have been stalled for about 3 months and was getting ready to throw in the towel and go back to counting calories. But over the weekend I did some more reading/listening to podcasts, and realized that I probably haven't been consuming enough fat and probably too much protein.

    I'm only three days in to my "experiment", but I definitely notice a HUGE difference in satiety. Before, I was eating about 3-400 calories of protein-rich breakfast and feeling hungry before 11am. Now, I'm eating a 1/3 Cup of Coconut Cream (Trader Joe's) for breakfast and this holds me until at least 12 or 1pm! Then I have my typical salad+meat for lunch and veggies+meat for dinner and I'm good to go! My carbs have remained in the 75-100g per day range but I've traded some protein for some fat, and so far, I feel a lot better.
    Obviously still very early and n=1, yada yada, but this is the most encouraged I have felt in ages!
    Yep. I have come to the same realization. It works when you work it right.

  2. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post
    Did you try figuring at the top end of the ranges. Also you may be underestimating your HSIS weight. The formula Dr. Kwasniewski uses fro HSIS is your height in centimeters minus 100 = your HSIS weight in kilos. For me, I think that is a little too high but work the numbers through that way and see what you get.
    Wish I had paid more attention in math class.

    If I figured it correctly using the inches to centimeters formula.... I come up with 150lbs
    150g prot -600 calories (which I NEVER hit so I should quit tripping on it)
    75g carbs - 300 calories (which I hardly ever hit)
    300g fat - 2700 calories!!!!!!!!! Can that be right??? 3600 calories??!!

    I usually finish with 1200 - 1500 day.
    65lbs gone and counting!!

    Fat 2 Fit - One Woman's Journey

  3. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post
    Very true. In a heathy person not looking to lose weight (or control epilepsy) this works fine. I don't want to come a cross as saying that everybody must be in ketosis all the time to be healthy.
    Or sometimes for a particular subset of us who are very near goal weight. More than a few folks around here have found more success shedding their last few pounds when they added moderate carbs back into their diet. Again, key word is *moderate* and that seems to be the fix more for very active folks than for sedentary ones (and age also appears to be a factor here since I think most are under 40).

    BTW, I hit my goal this morning, 150 lbs.
    “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

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  4. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by gopintos View Post
    Wish I had paid more attention in math class.

    If I figured it correctly using the inches to centimeters formula.... I come up with 150lbs
    150g prot -600 calories (which I NEVER hit so I should quit tripping on it)
    75g carbs - 300 calories (which I hardly ever hit)
    300g fat - 2700 calories!!!!!!!!! Can that be right??? 3600 calories??!!

    I usually finish with 1200 - 1500 day.
    I'm not sure that math is correct. As I understand it, the formula is as follows:

    Here is a way of calculating your HSIS weight, based on BMI. I'll use a 5'7" woman as an example

    Start with your ideal BMI. 22.5 is the normal midpoint
    Multiply by the square of your height in metres to get HSIS weight in kg. Eg 5'7" is 1.7m (multiply height in inches by 0.0254) so that gives 22.5*1.7*1.7=65 kg
    Multiply by 2.2 to convert to pounds - 65*2.2=143lb
    At HSIS weight, a woman will have approx 20% body fat and a man approx 13%. Call this number x. Lean body mass is then (1-x/100)*HSIS. So our hot woman will have (1-.2)*143=114lb LBM
    Target protein should then be this number in g, ie 114g of protein per day

    /louisa
    ----------------------------------------
    F, 48, 5'10"
    Start Date: 25-06-12 @ 161lbs
    Goal Reached: 30-09-12 @ 143lb. Now bouncing between 145lb - 149lb. I'd like less bounce and more consistency :-)

    Started Cross Fit 20.12.12 ---- Can't wait to submit my success story on the 1st anniversary of starting primal.

  5. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by gopintos View Post
    Wish I had paid more attention in math class.

    If I figured it correctly using the inches to centimeters formula.... I come up with 150lbs
    150g prot -600 calories (which I NEVER hit so I should quit tripping on it)
    75g carbs - 300 calories (which I hardly ever hit)
    300g fat - 2700 calories!!!!!!!!! Can that be right??? 3600 calories??!!

    I usually finish with 1200 - 1500 day.
    Wait, wait , wait. Hold the phone. You missed the part about converting it to kilos. 150 lbs is about 68 kilos. 68 is your HSIS number to base the calculations on, not 150.

    so 34g carbs
    68g protein +/- 10%
    fat anywhere from 138 up to 238

  6. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post
    Wait, wait , wait. Hold the phone. You missed the part about converting it to kilos. 150 lbs is about 68 kilos. 68 is your HSIS number to base the calculations on, not 150.

    so 34g carbs
    68g protein +/- 10%
    fat anywhere from 138 up to 238

    aaaahhh okay, mucho bettero.... well sort of
    65lbs gone and counting!!

    Fat 2 Fit - One Woman's Journey

  7. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Louisa655 View Post
    I'm not sure that math is correct. As I understand it, the formula is as follows:

    Here is a way of calculating your HSIS weight, based on BMI. I'll use a 5'7" woman as an example

    Start with your ideal BMI. 22.5 is the normal midpoint
    Multiply by the square of your height in metres to get HSIS weight in kg. Eg 5'7" is 1.7m (multiply height in inches by 0.0254) so that gives 22.5*1.7*1.7=65 kg
    Multiply by 2.2 to convert to pounds - 65*2.2=143lb
    At HSIS weight, a woman will have approx 20% body fat and a man approx 13%. Call this number x. Lean body mass is then (1-x/100)*HSIS. So our hot woman will have (1-.2)*143=114lb LBM
    Target protein should then be this number in g, ie 114g of protein per day

    /louisa
    There are lots of ways of figuring "ideal" weight. For women there is the old formula of 100lbs plus five for every inch over 5 feet. Which puts me at 150 for ideal weight. When I run BMI calculations through about a dozen different online calculators, they all average out to exactly 150. Go figure.
    By the Dr. Jan Kwasniweski formula I am 72 inches tall, convert to centimeters = 183 subtract 100 = 83 kilos ideal weight
    that is 183 pounds which is OK on me but it is not where I look and feel my best. So I go with the 150 instead.

  8. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post
    There are lots of ways of figuring "ideal" weight. For women there is the old formula of 100lbs plus five for every inch over 5 feet. Which puts me at 150 for ideal weight. When I run BMI calculations through about a dozen different online calculators, they all average out to exactly 150. Go figure.
    By the Dr. Jan Kwasniweski formula I am 72 inches tall, convert to centimeters = 183 subtract 100 = 83 kilos ideal weight
    that is 183 pounds which is OK on me but it is not where I look and feel my best. So I go with the 150 instead.
    So interesting this ideal weight stuff. With the 5 pounds for every inch formula, I should weigh 125. I would look sickly at that weight. I am currently 150 pounds and wear a size 4/6. I am muscular with an hourglass shape. Dr. Jan puts my HSIS weight at 143, which is near my goal of 140. I know other women who are 5'5" and weigh much less than me and I am always like WTF? Was I born with iron bars in my bones or what?
    "For the great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie—deliberate, contrived, and dishonest—but the myth—persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic ... we enjoy the comfort of opinions without the discomfort of thought."
    ---John F. Kennedy

  9. #139
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    Those formulas are weird... at the first formula I'm supposed to be 125 (which is around where I was last time I weighed myself but pretty sure I gained weight since then and I don't weigh myself often), the second puts me at 67 kg which is 147 and pretty sure I would be overweight at that point.

    I am always concerned about how much fat I am eating. My carbs are low-ish (probably 75-80 most days), I definitely get enough protein for LBM (90-100g/day) and then the rest is fat. I recently cut out some nuts because they were adding to it plus upsetting my stomach so now I just eat eggs, lean meat for the most part (chicken thighs are not terribly lean for example), avocados (is 1 a day too much??) and use butter for cooking. This is such a weird science...

  10. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by gempdx44 View Post
    So interesting this ideal weight stuff. With the 5 pounds for every inch formula, I should weigh 125. I would look sickly at that weight. I am currently 150 pounds and wear a size 4/6. I am muscular with an hourglass shape. Dr. Jan puts my HSIS weight at 143, which is near my goal of 140. I know other women who are 5'5" and weigh much less than me and I am always like WTF? Was I born with iron bars in my bones or what?
    I was thinking the same thing. It puts me at 130, which looks awful on me. A good weght for me on CW 140, and on Primal is 145. I'm wondering how much these numbers take into account muscle.
    My sorely neglected blog - http://ThatWriterBroad.com

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