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Thread: Aren't we ALL fat-burners and sugar-burners? What's the difference? page 5

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omni View Post
    Just did a search to confirm, you have been diagnosed with MS as well, yes?
    So I imagine your order of priority, as in do no harm, would be MS, IBS and then weight.
    The MS side is quite difficult, I spend a little bit of time on an MS forum as well, and it seems to me the bulk of the diet protocols promoted by individuals who cured their MS through diet are generally Paleo/Primal, but often with a lean away from saturated fats, so they are often in the pescetarian style. I suspect this may be the influence of the Swank diet, which was primarily based on reducing intake of saturated fats and his was the only long term trial & follow up to show some degree of verifiable data.
    But from what I have read there is a lot of conflicting Hypothesis on the etiology of MS, my suspicion is that Dairy plays a significant role in the expression of MS, but not necesarily a causal factor, it is more than likely that as with all autoimmune diseases there is a combination of factors, the first of them being epigenetics, what your mother was doing when you were just a wee little foetus. So like your user name, the best bet is an overall healthy diet base and you are probably in the right ballpark, I imagine you will most likely have checked vitamin D as this seems to be a big player there.
    Regarding the IBS & IF, tough balance there to keep a light load in the intestinal tract, but trying to extend some fasting period. From what I have been reading the morning is the major clean up time for the digestive system, I have been trying to gather some data on the circadian rhythems and there is some indications that morning is the tail end of a repair cycle, so leaving digestive tract empty may allow all energy to be focussed on repair, also our bodies do not ramp up metabolism, as expressed by basal body temp, until after 10am after melatonin levels have fallen. There was one study I read regarding mice & skin cancer, where they exposed them to UV at different times of their circadian rhythems and found there was major difference in incidence of cancer. If exposed during DNA repair cycle, then cancer incidence was low, if exposed during replication cycle then incidence was high, this primarily relates to sun exposure for vitamin D, which for humans would translate to morning sun to noon being a much safer time to get your Vitamin D than the mid to late afternoon and they have started looking at this effect in cancer treatment as to what time of day is chemo going to be most effective as there have been some anecdotal reports coming out that seem to confirm this.
    How does all this relate to diet?
    For me I think everything seems to point to morning fasting and sun exposure to early afternoon, being the most beneficial approach as indications are this is when our bodies are in clean up & DNA repair phase. The bulk of our energy requirements & building blocks are in the afternoon when body goes into DNA replication, so I imagine this is the time we would take shelter and start consuming food to support the body building process. I am still on the look out for more info on body cycles, but it is quite scant.
    So in a very long winded way I think you can definately get some IF benefits by just holding back food in the morning, and maybe this is the maximum point for some anyway and going longer may be less beneficial, no one really knows. I think most would agree that there is a difference between male & female responses to IF and this should not be ignored, generally women seem to be more comfortable in the 16/8 range. I think you will see most of the benefits with your proposal of a 10-12hour feeding window and it will not make much difference how you spread your meals out in that time even if you just nibbled a bit every 30 min. Doing the smaller meals will definately help with keeping Insulin at a lower average level particularly if you are in the higher carb end.
    Yes, I am diagnosed with MS, and everything you wrote about the diets is accurate - I started out eliminating gluten and dairy, then to the Swank diet, but the way I was doing it was really more like the Best Bet Diet (hence my name). And yes, according to blood tests, my Vit D is totally fine, and I make sure i get lots of sunlight and supplementation in the winter. The timing of Vit D that you posted is very interesting - I'll have to look into that more!

    In my reading of newer papers that have been published on Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, I've been realizing that people with CFS often do much better with a higher carb+sugar diet, hence the curiousity about whether changing up my diet might help my fatigue.

    This leads me to wonder: If after eating strictly paleo (no grains or starches or cane sugar) for a year allows a person to become as efficient a fat-burner as they can possibly be, which still isn't very efficient, is it then likely that some people really AREN'T meant to be consuming high fat/low carb, and that continuing to eat this way out of philosophical conviction might be doing more harm than good?

    Don't get me wrong, I think that high quality saturated fat is important for good health, but maybe some people really don't thrive when too much of their consumption is centered on fat.
    Last edited by BestBetter; 08-28-2012 at 06:23 AM.

  2. #42
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    keto-adaptation is the answer to the OP's question; Primal 101
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by BestBetter View Post
    Yes, I am diagnosed with MS, and everything you wrote about the diets is accurate - I started out eliminating gluten and dairy, then to the Swank diet, but the way I was doing it was really more like the Best Bet Diet (hence my name). And yes, according to blood tests, my Vit D is totally fine, and I make sure i get lots of sunlight and supplementation in the winter. The timing of Vit D that you posted is very interesting - I'll have to look into that more!
    The paper has the title: "Control of skin cancer by the circadian rhythm", if you search this you can get the paper or the seventh listing on the search is a powerpoint presentation and is a bit more visual, but as I said, it was mice so any reccomendation is only provisional.
    The other thing to take into account is the fact that UVB is what you want for Vitamin D and it is at it's highest levels when the sun is directly overhead, UVB is what burns you & makes vitamin D, UVA is more constant throughout the day and it is the one that Tan's you and causes the damage & Cancer. There is a complex interplay between all these factors, so my reading would be to aim for Sun exposure at between 9:00am and 1:00pm

    Quote Originally Posted by BestBetter View Post
    In my reading of newer papers that have been published on Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, I've been realizing that people with CFS often do much better with a higher carb+sugar diet, hence the curiousity about whether changing up my diet might help my fatigue.
    Interesting, I read some posts on a Fibromalgia & CFS forum a while back raving about great success with Paleo diet, do you have any links to those papers regardiing the carbs?
    I have an interest in the autoimmune in general, know plenty of people with different ones, but I think they all likely have a common root, just a different expression.

    Quote Originally Posted by BestBetter View Post
    This leads me to wonder: If after eating strictly paleo (no grains or starches or cane sugar) for a year allows a person to become as efficient a fat-burner as they can possibly be, which still isn't very efficient, is it then likely that some people really AREN'T meant to be consuming high fat/low carb, and that continuing to eat this way out of philosophical conviction might be doing more harm than good?
    Don't get me wrong, I think that high quality saturated fat is important for good health, but maybe some people really don't thrive when too much of their consumption is centered on fat.
    You gotta do what you feel is best for you irrespective of any dogma.
    I suppose the question is, do you feel better than you did before you went paleo?, It's always hard to see what are improvements or roadblocks when it is filtered through the symptoms of a health condition, my feelings are paleo is the right formula for most everyone, but adjusting the balance of meat/fruit/veg to tailor for the individual.

  4. #44
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    Omni,

    Three of the articles I found to be the most informative on Chronic Fatigue Syndrome:

    CFS - The Central Cause: Mitochondrial Failure - DoctorMyhill

    CFS - The Methylation Cycle - DoctorMyhill

    Mitochondrial Dysfunction & CFS

    None of them special mention macros when eating, but they have a TON of info. I didn't bookmark the stuff that was mentioning increasing carbs, so I'll see if I can find those and post links later.

  5. #45
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    Thank's,
    Will have a read.

  6. #46
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    Just had a look at the Methylation article, then thought what's the interest in CFS?
    I assume this is the non specific fatigue/low energy when you were in the low carb range, yet you put on weight, you mentioned back somewhere not pulling same weights in gym etc, yet when you threw some sugar at it you immediately got over those hurdles.
    The first thing I noticed when I opened the methylation page was Acetyl L Carnitine & CoQ10, thats when it clicked where you were going, both of these two are an essential part of the fat metabolism pathway, one is the Fatty acid transporter(CoQ10 I think) in the blood, the other transports the Fatty acids across the mitochondrial membrane, so if you are lacking in either of them then this would be a definate roadblock to Fat metabolism.
    I know of a number of individuals with undefined fatigue issues that immediately improved by supplementing these two, now it isn't a fix for everyone, most of the time the response is almost immediate, generally, if they are going to show a result it will be within a week.
    The normal dosage I have seen used was around CoQ10 at 150mg/day and Carnitine between 2,000-4,000mg per day.
    Have a bit of a search on them, most descriptions indicate the same types of benefits/improvements regarding fatigue, brain fog etc.
    If you decide to go back to low carb at any point and hit the same type of wall, may be worth a try to see if supplementation can alleviate symptoms, this may give you some insight as to where the issues lie.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omni View Post
    Just had a look at the Methylation article, then thought what's the interest in CFS?
    I assume this is the non specific fatigue/low energy when you were in the low carb range, yet you put on weight, you mentioned back somewhere not pulling same weights in gym etc, yet when you threw some sugar at it you immediately got over those hurdles.
    The first thing I noticed when I opened the methylation page was Acetyl L Carnitine & CoQ10, thats when it clicked where you were going, both of these two are an essential part of the fat metabolism pathway, one is the Fatty acid transporter(CoQ10 I think) in the blood, the other transports the Fatty acids across the mitochondrial membrane, so if you are lacking in either of them then this would be a definate roadblock to Fat metabolism.
    I know of a number of individuals with undefined fatigue issues that immediately improved by supplementing these two, now it isn't a fix for everyone, most of the time the response is almost immediate, generally, if they are going to show a result it will be within a week.
    The normal dosage I have seen used was around CoQ10 at 150mg/day and Carnitine between 2,000-4,000mg per day.
    Have a bit of a search on them, most descriptions indicate the same types of benefits/improvements regarding fatigue, brain fog etc.
    If you decide to go back to low carb at any point and hit the same type of wall, may be worth a try to see if supplementation can alleviate symptoms, this may give you some insight as to where the issues lie.

    My interest in CFS is mainly due to having severe fatigue that fits a CFS diagnosis. However, the moment I tell a doctor that I'm diagnosed with MS (even though I've have no flares or new lesions in 2 years), they automatically tell me that any issue I have is due to the MS and basically I just have to suck it up.

    I'm not willing to accept this, because this is what both gastroenterologists told me when I was suffering from IBS-C; it was likely due to my MS and I'd just have to live with it. Instead of accepting that, I kept researching, and eventually I was able to heal myself, stop the IBS flares and get control of the constipation by using information from Fiber Menace - low fiber diet, probiotics, L-glutamine supplements, and Hydro-C.

    A while back, I did try all those supplements listed in the articles - D-Ribose, CoQ10, L-Acetyl-Carnitine,etc... but they had zero effect on my fatigue. But the reason that I started to have the suspicion that my body just isn't efficiently accessing energy from fat came from several experiences:

    1) 16-24 hour fasts were no problem hunger level wise, but any time i attempted to go longer than 24 hours, my vital signs dropped way too low. BP went down to 85/55, pulse was in the 40s. It seemed like my body was shutting down, rather than accessing some of the extra fat I clearly had in storage. Consuming electrolytes and bone broth and coconut oil had zero effect on BP and pulse. The moment I had some sugar in the form of fruit or honey, everything normalized fairly quickly.

    2) I really enjoyed the freedom that low carb (75-125g) gave me in terms of hunger, and for a while, I felt great. But after about 6ish months, I noticed that my mood was significantly worse; everything seemed dark and I was prone to depression. I assumed this was typical winter Seasonal Affective stuff, and that it would pass, but come summer I was no better. I was trying a variety of amino acid supplements, Sam-e, etc...which had temporary improvements on mood but nothing long term.

    Now that I've been eating high carb/high sugar, I feel like a different person; I see the positive side of everything, I laugh all the time, problems that would have previous sent me into a pit of despair just roll right off. So far, there don't seem to be highs and lows, just an overall sense of well-being and happiness. (I'm only about a month into this experiment, so I don't know if these changes will be lasting.)

    3) The issue you brought up about lack of improvement at the gym. For close to a year, I was moaking no progress, still using almost all the same starting weights. Upon reintroducing carbs, I started putting on muscle and gaining strength like crazy; with carbs I made more progress in 2 months of weightlifting than in a whole year of eating low carb. I understand that some people pack on muscle without any carbs, but it just never worked for me.

    The thing is, I really like the philosophy behind low carb, and I think it can be a very valuable way of eating for people (like myself) who need to get control of hunger, or help normalize blood sugar, etc... but I'm seeing that for myself, at least, now that I have a healthy relationship with food, and I'm not prone to binges or food obsession anymore, eating low carb just isn't serving my needs.

    So, if we are all both sugar-burners and fat-burners at various points throughout the day, maybe eating more sugar and less fat isn't necessarily a bad thing for some people, because it doesn't mean that the fat-burning will screach to a halt.

    I'm interested to see where this experiment leads me...it's possible that I need some form of fat/carb seasonal cycling, which may ultimately be the answer for me. In the colder weather, more fats less sugars; in the warmer months less fat more sugars. Time will tell.
    Last edited by BestBetter; 08-29-2012 at 03:36 AM.

  8. #48
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    Ok, got it.
    You've been through many stages on this path, covered all the obvious things.
    Just getting back to fundamentals, I still feel that fat metabolism should be the primary energy source, because excess glucose is always converted to fat anyway, then used in that form.
    But for you for whatever reason some part of the cycle is not kicking in, you obviously did it for quite a while and although you got by, with both the physical & mental/emotional symptoms indicating that things weren't as good as they could have been, and this carb experiment has given you an insight to where you can be.
    I think the carb cycling you mentioned is a good idea because it will keep that fat side tuned, but it will also allow you to test for any improvements in that aspect.
    Having heard that much of your story, and I imagine there is probably more, it is highly likely your body was going downhill for quite a while before you actually became aware of it, this is likely the case for most everyone, even the apparantly healthy ones and Mark himself has mentioned at times how his old "war wounds" flare on occassion, so your healing will probably also take a significant time.
    For myself I feel that after 3-4 years of this diet/lifestyle I will start to get an appreciation of how I am supposed to feel, this being about the time it takes to cycle out the excess polyunsaturated oils and clear some of the other toxins from my own body.
    If you have significant repair work needed, then it will take a significant time, from the other groups I am also on, mainly thyroid & MS, there seems to be a majority view that places gastrointestinal health at the centre of most autoimmune manifestations and you are already attending to that and I'm sure you've already read similar things anyway.
    Wish I could have been of more help,
    Funny thing is I joined up here expecting to interact with a bunch of really healthy individuals, after my autoimmune forum discussions, but gradually I began to understand most people come here because they feel that there is an issue with their health and are looking for ways to improve it, my self included.

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