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  1. #51
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    I've only skimmed it briefly, not had time to read it properly yet. Just thought I'd paste the link while it was still open in my browser from when I saw it elsewhere earlier.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omni View Post
    Can you elaborate on this, I thought the primary output of bacterial fibre fermentation in the gut is Short Chain Fatty acids, I could not locate any plant sources of these.
    The flora actually produce short chain and medium chain fatty acids. The medium chain fatty acids are produced by the Saccharomyces yeast that make up part of our flora.

    As far as short chain fatty acids in plants they are actually quite abundant. Coconut oil contains several such as caprylic acid. Chlorella contains butyric, caproic and caprylic acids. Nettle leaf contains formic acid. And alpha linoleic acid is found in numerous plants such as chia, soy, flax, walnuts, pumpkin seeds, etc.


    Quote Originally Posted by Omni View Post
    When you refer to Estrogens in beef, are you refering to feedlot cattle?
    My understanding is it is not an issue with grass fed beef.
    That is a myth. Feedlot cattle may have higher levels of estrogen from hormones given to cattle to increase their weight or milk production. What people are forgetting is that the cattle produce their own hormones that are in the tissues and circulating in the blood when the animal is killed. Those hormones do not disappear when the animal is killed. They are still in the tissues and blood of the meats people are consuming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omni View Post
    The other question I have is your repeated references WAPF and their being funded by the Beef & Dairy industries,
    I believe the evidence of this was in my previous links about WAPF. If not I can find the evidence again. This fact was disclosed by WAPF itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omni View Post
    They do believe Soy is bad, amongst other things.
    Because the biggest competitor to their largest funders, the beef and dairy industries is soy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omni View Post
    Do you actually have any documentation to say they are funded by Beef & Dairy, or is this an assumption because of their opposition to Soy?
    Here is a link discussing their funding:

    Weston A. Price Foundation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    "Current sponsors can be seen at the main page of the Foundation's website. The sponsors include grass-fed meat and wild fish producers, as well as health product companies."

    Interestingly the WAPF states:

    " Although many of our members are farmers, the Foundation has no ties with the meat or dairy industry, nor with any organization promoting these industries."

    Yet, one of their attorneys is fighting for the dairy industry for WAPF:

    Board of Directors

    " Peter Kennedy, Esq. - President
    Pete Kennedy is an attorney in Sarasota, Florida who works on dairy issues for the Weston A. Price Foundation, particularly, the right of farmers to distribute raw milk and raw milk products direct to consumers. He has represented or assisted in the representation of dairy farmers facing possible state enforcement action in Florida, Wisconsin, Ohio, Michigan and Indiana. "

    Sure sounds like a tie to the dairy industry to me. Of course WAPF has been caught lying so many times what's one more lie to them?

    Something else I find really interesting is that they state they are funded in part by "sponsors". Now normally sponsors donate money so their name is made available in some form of advertising by the person or group that receives the money. In fact, let's look at the definition:

    Sponsor (commercial) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    "Sponsorship[1] is a cash and/or in-kind fee paid to a property (typically in sports, arts, entertainment or causes) in return for access to the exploitable commercial potential associated with that property, according to IEG.

    While the sponsoree (property being sponsored) may be nonprofit, unlike philanthropy, sponsorship is done with the expectation of a commercial return."

    Yet, I cannot find anything showing WAPF's sponsors. Why is that? What are they trying to hide? As sponsors their names should at least be plastered all over the WAPF website so their sponsors get some advertising for their money. Could it be that all the money they are receiving from the beef and dairy industries directly or indirectly would prove their major conflicts of interest? And would show why they have fabricated evidence so many times to bash the biggest competitor of their sponsors, which is soy?

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by magicmerl View Post
    How long has unfermented soy been consumed for?
    Soy does not have to fermented to reduce some of the compounds some people consider dangerous such as phytoestrogens. Many of these compounds are also reduced or eliminated by cooking.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerseyjim View Post
    Umm, cause they make me gassy
    That does not make legumes bad for everyone. Beans for example can be soaked in several changes of water to remove the sugar that causes the gas formation.

    By the way, beef also causes some people to become gassy. So does this make beef dangerous or bad for humans?

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes View Post
    I'm not convinced I should eat soy instead of beef. I ate a lot of soy before and now I don't. I eat a lot of beef now and I look and feel better than ever.
    Why instead of? People can enjoy both. I do.

    And soy provides phytic acid that binds heavy metals and dangerous free iron that the beef can provide.

  6. #56
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    A couple more studies showing the ANTI-CANCER properties of phytoestrogens:

    Phytoestrogens: epidemiology and a possible role in cancer protection.

    Phytoestrogens: epidemiology and a possible role in cancer protection.


    J Nutr. 1995 Mar;125(3 Suppl):757S-770S.

    Soybean phytoestrogen intake and cancer risk.

    Adlercreutz CH, Goldin BR, Gorbach SL, Höckerstedt KA, Watanabe S, Hämäläinen EK, Markkanen MH, Mäkelä TH, Wähälä KT, Adlercreutz T.

    Source

    Department of Clinical Chemistry, Helsinki University Central Hospital, Finland.
    Erratum in

    J Nutr 1995 Jul;125(7):1960.

    Abstract

    Because many Western diseases are hormone-dependent cancers, we have postulated that the Western diet, compared with a vegetarian or semi-vegetarian diet, may alter hormone production, metabolism or action at the cellular level. Recently, our interest has been focused on the cancer-protective role of some hormone-like diphenolic phytoestrogens of dietary origin, the lignans and isoflavonoids. The precursors of the biologically active compounds originate in soybean products (mainly isoflavonoids but also lignans), as well as whole grain cereals, seeds, probably berries and nuts (mainly lignans). The plant lignan and isoflavonoid glycosides are converted by intestinal bacteria to hormone-like compounds with weak estrogenic and antioxidative activity; they have now been shown to influence not only sex hormone metabolism and biological activity but also intracellular enzymes, protein synthesis, growth factor action, malignant cell proliferation, differentiation and angiogenesis, making them strong candidates for a role as natural cancer protective compounds. Epidemiological investigations support this hypothesis, because the highest levels of these compounds are found in countries or regions with low cancer incidence. This report is a review of results that suggest that the diphenolic isoflavonoids and lignans are natural cancer-protective compounds.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesS View Post
    And yes, grass fed beef does have a little better profile but it still very high in omega 6 fatty acids. Primarily arachidonic acid.
    James: First, I'd like to say that I appreciate your contributions on this thread.

    But beef is NOT high in omega 6 fatty acids. Beef tallow is one of the lowest omega-6 fats there is. In 100g of beef fat, there is only 3.1g of total omega-6 fats.

    Nutrition Facts and Analysis for Fat, beef tallow
    Last edited by yodiewan; 08-20-2012 at 10:08 AM.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesS View Post

    Soy does not reduce testosterone. That is just another of the debunked myths that refuse to die because people would rather believe something they hear that is negative than to research the facts. Same reason the negative campaign ads work so well. Anyway, here is a study proving it:

    Serum prostate-specific antigen but not test... [Eur J Clin Nutr. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI

    Here are a few but still not the ones I was looking for.

    Effects of replacing meat with soyabean in the die... [Br J Nutr. 2000] - PubMed - NCBI

    Soy Protein Isolates of Varying Isoflavone Content Exert Minor Effects on Serum Reproductive Hormones in Healthy Young Men

    Isoflavone-Rich Soy Protein Isolate Suppresses Androgen Receptor Expression without Altering Estrogen Receptor-

    Soy Protein Isolate Increases Urinary Estrogens and the Ratio of 2:16

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesS View Post
    First of all you are confusing normal vasodilation with inflammation. So let me start by giving a simple explanation of the process and the difference.

    When there is trauma to a tissue there is a release of inflammatory prostaglandins. These prostaglandins, which are increased by arachidonic acid, dilate the blood vessels to increase oxygen and nutrients to the injured area to promote healing. So you were partially correct. Although, if there is excess production of inflammatory prostaglandins then we end up with inflammation, which can cause pain and inhibit healing. When there is an excess of prostaglandins the blood vessels over dilate making them permeable and they leak fluids in to the surrounding tissues causing inflammation. Thus the difference. But excess inflammation can decrease circulation and decrease lymphatic function leading to decreased healing.
    I'm not confusing anything. You're creating a straw man and ignoring my original argument. Arachidonic acid is supposed to be inflammatory - it's integral in the healing process. Of course things in excess is harmful. That is the very definition of "excess." Too much water is inflammatory and leads to death. Same thing goes for sunshine. However, water and sunshine are good in the appropriate quantities. So is arachidonic acid.


    Quote Originally Posted by JamesS View Post
    It isn't? Maybe you need to look up the pathway for arachidonic acid synthesis. Arachidonic acid is formed in a pathway using linoleic acid as a starter molecule. Linoleic acid is also the precursor for DGLA, an anti-inflammatory for the body. And the precursor for that is GLA, which also has beneficial effects to the body. All these compounds have one thing in common, which is they start out as linoleic acid.
    Yes, the body can convert linoleic acid to arachidonic acid just like the body can convert ALA into EPA and DHA. However, studies have shown that ALA conversion is poor and inefficient. The same thing stands with LA conversion into AA. Just like it is far better to take in EPA and DHA from fish instead of ALA from nasty sources like flax and chia, it's better to take in AA from chicken, fish and beef than it is to take in LA from nasty things like soy, canola oil, peanuts and oatmeal. LA is not something the body is designed to take in in large quantities, just like ALA. This is reflected in the poor conversion efficiency.

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesS View Post
    There is no evidence that the human body is not designed to take in plant fats. In fact, our flora produce beneficial fatty acids just like we derive from the metabolism of plant fats.
    You changed my argument. Your body can handle small amounts of plant-based fats. They are not ideal. The overwhelming majority of your fat intake should come from animal sources. Again, this is reflected by our body's poor and inefficient means of converting ALA to EPA/DHA, LA to AA and the fact that our digestive system more closely resembles that of a carnivore than a herbivore. Make no mistake about it, we can survive on plant matter but we thrive best getting most of our calories from animal sources.

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesS View Post
    Linoleic acid is not a fat, it is a fatty acid. And there is a difference just like there was a difference between vasodilation and inflamamtion that you also confused earlier.
    LDL and HDL are lipoproteins, not cholesterol. What's your point? You're creating another straw man.

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesS View Post
    Secondly, you just got done claiming how beneficial arachidonic acid is. So you are contradicting yourself now since arachidonic acid is generated from linoleic acid as a starter molecule.
    No, I didn't. You made that assessment somehow. You don't need very much arachidonic acid.

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesS View Post
    As far as your claim about almost no vitamin E the levels vary from different cultivars:

    Identification of QTL underlying vitamin E contents in soybean seed among multiple environments
    According to nutritiondata, 830 calories of raw soybeans have 1.6mg of vitamin E. Meanwhile, 823 calories of almonds have 35.9mg of Vitamin E. I'd say that's significant.

    Nutrition Facts and Analysis for Nuts, almonds, dry roasted, without salt added [Includes USDA commodity food A255, A263]
    Nutrition Facts and Analysis for Soybeans, mature seeds, raw

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesS View Post
    You just got in to it and you are still wrong. Soy protein is digested just like other protein sources. You must be getting all this misinformation from bogus propaganda sites like you linked below.
    Really? Maybe you're getting all this misinformation from bogus propaganda sites.

    http://webpages.charter.net/edsouza/...minarpaper.doc

    Please view Page 18.

    Whey Concentrate: 104
    Egg: 100
    Cow's Milk: 91
    Fish: 83
    Beef: 80
    Soy: 59
    Peanuts: 43

    That means that the protein in soy is almost half as available as the protein in eggs or whey. And of course, only around 2/3 as effective as animal flesh. And that's without the horrible effects of the phytoestrogens, which would likely make it the biggest junk protein on this list.

    I'm not going to comment on the rest because, frankly, it's painful to read and I can't make it through. My forehead is too sore from its time spent slammed against my keyboard. If you wish to eat one of the most toxic substances on Earth for some reason, it's a free country. I suggest avoiding human poisons like soy because not only are they unhealthy, but they taste terrible as well. There really is no reason to consume the stuff unless you have to walk-the-walk to sell something. Personally, I'm not interested in buying.
    Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 08-20-2012 at 10:01 AM.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesS View Post
    Soy has been a part of the human diet for around 5,000 years. And it has been shown to inhibit breast cancer in real studies. As far as atherosclerosis goes meat has been shown to be a major contributor due to its high level of inflammatory arachidonic acid. On the other hand you keep implying that soy raises estrogen, which reduces heart disease risk so you are contradicting yourself again:

    Estrogen and Disease | Health Library | Weill Cornell Physicians | Advancing Science. Enhancing Life.

    The 'limp dick" and "bitch tits" is a joke. I wonder if you drink beer because beer is loaded with phytoestrogens. So if you drink beer you must have a limp dick and and bitch tits according to your hypothesis.
    Oh my God. Ok, I have to comment on this because this is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. Whoa, other plants contain phytoestrogens? No way! Let's actually talk QUANTITY.

    http://www.dietaryfiberfood.com/inde...ge=0&Itemid=30


    Phytoestrogen food sources Phytoestrogen content (μg/100g)
    Flax seed 379380
    Soy beans 103920
    Tofu 27150.1
    Soy yogurt 10275
    Sesame seed 8008.1
    Flax bread 7540
    Multigrain bread 4798.7
    Soy milk 2957.2
    Hummus 993
    Garlic 603.6
    Mung bean sprouts 495.1
    Dried apricots 444.5
    Alfalfa sprouts 441.4
    Dried dates 329.5
    Sunflower seed 216
    Chestnuts 210.2
    Olive oil 180.7
    Almonds 131.1
    Green bean 105.8
    Peanuts 34.5
    Onion 32
    Blueberry 17.5
    Coffee, regular 6.3
    Watermelon 2.9
    Milk, cow 1.2
    So, again, let's actually talk quantity. Cow's milk contains phytoestrogens. So do soybeans. Cow's milk contains 1.2μg/100g. Soybeans contain 103,920 μg/100g. Are you serious?

    Soybeans cause breast cancer. Again, phytoestrogen. You can take epidemiological studies that show whole grains are good for you, but in reality it's the confounding factors that show lifestyle improvements. People who eat whole grains are less likely to smoke, more likely to exercise and more likely to cook their own meals and be dutiful with portion control. It doesn't mean whole wheat is better for you. Actual studies show you get more nutrition out of white bread than whole wheat bread.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7411239
    (summary at) www.http://anthonycolpo.com/?p=852

    These data suggest that vitamin B-6 is 5-10% less available from WHW than from WB6 or W bread and an oral dose of B-6.
    Epidemiology is crap when we're talking health and nutrition.
    Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 08-20-2012 at 10:17 AM.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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