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  1. #31
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    JamesS - one of the big issues for me, which you haven't yet addressed, is the high carbohydrate levels of soy. I've given up grains and legumes, partly to help in weight loss and that has been successful. If there is some nutrient that soy provides that I cannot get in a lower carbohydrate food, then maybe I'd consider adding it to my diet. One thing that PB promotes is that grains (and legumes) provide no nutritional benefit that cannot be obtained from other food - the big benefit being that grains and legumes are a cheap, easy source of calories. So, even if the negative data on soy promoted by WAPF and other groups turns out to be false, there is still a good reason to avoid soy, unless someone needs a cheap source of calories - unlikely here in the F(fat)USA.

  2. #32
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    If I'm reading the graph here: USDA ERS - Adoption of Genetically Engineered Crops in the U.S.: Recent Trends in GE Adoption correctly, about 91+% of the soybeans produced in the U.S. are genetically engineered.

    That's reason enough for me. Corn and soybeans in this country are just not good food. They are garbage.

    I didn't originally care about gentically engineered food, and then I read how it gets done. I'm not eating that crap if I can help it.

    Here's some more reading if you want: Genetically Modified Soybean This source states that over half of worldwide grown soy has been a GMO since 2007. Which means you can't even protect yourself if you get non-US soy.

    Even if the stuff were perfect, it would pale in comparison to meat and leafy veggies for nutrients.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesS View Post
    Asthma is an inflammatory condition, which is why the fish oil helps to reduce it.

    And yes, grass fed beef does have a little better profile but it still very high in omega 6 fatty acids. Primarily arachidonic acid.

    This also brings me back to my earlier point. If your diet was strictly grass fed beef this would not have made your asthma better, it would have become worse due to the increase of arachidonic acid and its further production from linoleic acid in the beef. But the addition of other foods helps to balance out the inflammatory omega 6 fatty acids that are much higher in beef than soy. So it is wrong to single out a specific food to claim it is somehow dangerous while promoting other specific foods like beef that pose more dangers if either were consumed as the sole food. Again, we eat a variety of foods in our diets that help to balance out the potential negative effects of other foods. For example, the fish oil helps to counter the inflammatory effects of the arachidonic acid in beef. Soy contains sterols that reduce the inflammation from the arachidonic acid formed from the anti-inflammatory DGLA. B vitamin rich foods can help the liver break down the dangerous estrogens in beef and dairy. Plants provide fiber that feed the flora that in turn break the estrogen metabolites down even further so they do not add to the estrogen load. I can go on and on with examples. But again, the ingestion of any single food as sole food source is going to cause health issues no matter how "safe" the food is considered.
    Interesting. i'm not going to go on a big tirade against soy, as I didn't eat much of it prior to going 'primal'. And the changes I made were too numerous to pinpoint any one food as a problem. But...I feel better than I have in years and that directly coresponds to my diet changes. i think, JamesS, we'd agree that the medical establishment would never have even suggested a diet change to improve asthma symptomes. As my diet changes were fairly drastic, there is no way that I could suggest any one food item was to blame, but following the Primal Blueprint seems to have worked - miraculously if you ask me.

  4. #34
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    Its unfortunate that soy has become the black sheep of the legume family. I personally think it has more to do with "he who cant be named" (Monsanto). Yes there are phytoestrogens in soy, and yes there are phytoestrogens in flax as well as cashews, almonds, rice, quinoa, spinach, and the beloved sweet potato.

    That being said IMO its the shear volume of products that soy has found its way in to that makes it such a target. If one really wanted to rid the body of excess estrogens look at all the man made chemical compounds that severely alter not just our hormone levels but the hormone levels of our offspring. BPA/S, dioxins and other obesogens are the room in which the soy bean sits. Why doesnt anyone talk about those?

    I dont recommend soy as I feel there are better choices out there. I wont recommend soy because a large population is allergic to it. But at the same time buying canned sardines, oysters, tuna, salmon thinking that these items are going to help one raise the O3 intake does far more damage to the overall sytem from toxic phytoestrogens than a bowl of edamame anyday.

    I would also like to add that I dont recommend soy because of the correlation between soy consumption and lower testosterone levels. I had to plug in my tablet and wanted post before I found the references. Unfortunately I cant find those either. JamesS can you comment?
    Last edited by Iron Will; 08-19-2012 at 10:01 PM.

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    Okay, Iron Will, while I stated that I cannot pinpoint any one food as a problem, I definitely focused my diet attention on increasing my O3 to O6 ratio and it seems to have been a benefit. If you've read this thread from the beginning, can you give me some indication of your opinion on O3 intake in regards to that last paragraph? What I've done is working, and I'd welcome any further understanding.

  6. #36
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    OK, let me add my 2 cents worth. I lived most of my life in corn , soy, tobacco and potato country. One thing no one has yet mentioned is the fact Roundup is used on so many crops. My neighbours used Roundup on most crops, but soybeans were one of the major GMO crops bred specifically for weed suppression through heavy use of the glyphosate weedkiller. But scientists around the world are raising alarms over both the rising rates of glyphosate and a new organism that is causing animal miscarriages.
    Monsanto's Roundup Ready Crops Contain Organism Causing Animal Miscarriages, Scientist Says
    Although this pathogen isn't specific to soybeans only, it is a red light to 90% of soybean use in this country, fermented or not. I quit buying soybeans by the bushel for household use by the time Roundup and GMO seeds became widespread.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    Arachidonic acid is often regarded as pro-inflammatory because it is required for the healing process in the body. Arachidonic acid is a crucial component of your body and if you do not have adequate AA in your body, you will not be able to heal properly. The healing process in the body is inflammation - it seems ridiculous to paint arachidonic acid as being unhealthy for being pro-inflammatory when its entire purpose is to promote healing.
    First of all you are confusing normal vasodilation with inflammation. So let me start by giving a simple explanation of the process and the difference.

    When there is trauma to a tissue there is a release of inflammatory prostaglandins. These prostaglandins, which are increased by arachidonic acid, dilate the blood vessels to increase oxygen and nutrients to the injured area to promote healing. So you were partially correct. Although, if there is excess production of inflammatory prostaglandins then we end up with inflammation, which can cause pain and inhibit healing. When there is an excess of prostaglandins the blood vessels over dilate making them permeable and they leak fluids in to the surrounding tissues causing inflammation. Thus the difference. But excess inflammation can decrease circulation and decrease lymphatic function leading to decreased healing.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    You need inflammation to survive, and arachidonic acid causes inflammation where needed, not chronic inflammation (unlike soy).


    "Inflammation where needed"? So why is the inflammation of migraines needed? What s the role of inflammatory prostaglandins in menstrual cramps? What is the inflammatory purpose in asthma?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    Arachidonic acid is very important inside the human body. Linoleic acid isn't.
    It isn't? Maybe you need to look up the pathway for arachidonic acid synthesis. Arachidonic acid is formed in a pathway using linoleic acid as a starter molecule. Linoleic acid is also the precursor for DGLA, an anti-inflammatory for the body. And the precursor for that is GLA, which also has beneficial effects to the body. All these compounds have one thing in common, which is they start out as linoleic acid.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    The human body isn't designed to take in large quantities of fat from plant sources, and in the odd event where it does happen (avocados, olives, coconut, cocoa) it is almost entirely monounsaturated or saturated, or if polyunsaturated fat content is high it comes loaded with lots of Vitamin E and phenolic content (nuts) to help stop the oxidative damage.
    There is no evidence that the human body is not designed to take in plant fats. In fact, our flora produce beneficial fatty acids just like we derive from the metabolism of plant fats.

    As far as the polyphenols go they are found in numerous sources including low fat plants like blueberries.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    Soy comes packed with highly inflammatory polyunsaturated fat (linoleic, which your body doesn't need much of at all) with hardly any monounsaturated or saturated fats to prevent oxidation and has almost no Vitamin E to be found.
    Linoleic acid is not a fat, it is a fatty acid. And there is a difference just like there was a difference between vasodilation and inflamamtion that you also confused earlier.

    Secondly, you just got done claiming how beneficial arachidonic acid is. So you are contradicting yourself now since arachidonic acid is generated from linoleic acid as a starter molecule.

    As far as your claim about almost no vitamin E the levels vary from different cultivars:

    Identification of QTL underlying vitamin E contents in soybean seed among multiple environments

    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    We won't even get into the protein issue. Nearly half of soy's protein is not available for use by the human body,
    You just got in to it and you are still wrong. Soy protein is digested just like other protein sources. You must be getting all this misinformation from bogus propaganda sites like you linked below.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    and the phytoestrogens are so potent that it counteracts it entirely and reverses any positive effect trace protein may have.
    Phytoestrogens are not potent. They are extremely weak. The estrogens in beef are potent being hundreds to thousands of times stronger than phytoestrogens. Phytoestrogens are also estrogen antagonists, and thus reduce estrogen that can antagonize testosterone.

    By the way, simply consuming protein does not increase testosterone so phytoestrogens and protein intake are irrelevant.

    Some funny propaganda sites. In your first link they are discussing a type 1 diabetic with erectile dysfunction. Do you understand the concept that diabetes can cause erectile dysfunction? Blaming soy in convenient since whoever wrote the article was already biased against soy as the rest of the articles misconceptions show.

    The other links bring up isolated cases with definitive proof of causation. If the phytoestrogens were causing the hypersexuality in the one woman for example then why weren't other plants doing the same thing since phytoestrogens are found in all plants we consume?

    Do you have any credible studies to present?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    Mmm, soy. Not only does it taste terrible, but I get a limp dick, bitch tits, breast cancer and atherosclerosis along with it! Where do I sign up? Exactly how long has soy been a significant portion of the human diet again?
    Soy has been a part of the human diet for around 5,000 years. And it has been shown to inhibit breast cancer in real studies. As far as atherosclerosis goes meat has been shown to be a major contributor due to its high level of inflammatory arachidonic acid. On the other hand you keep implying that soy raises estrogen, which reduces heart disease risk so you are contradicting yourself again:

    Estrogen and Disease | Health Library | Weill Cornell Physicians | Advancing Science. Enhancing Life.

    The 'limp dick" and "bitch tits" is a joke. I wonder if you drink beer because beer is loaded with phytoestrogens. So if you drink beer you must have a limp dick and and bitch tits according to your hypothesis.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    I stopped eating soy a few months back when I noticed that my bottle of soy sauce listed wheat on the ingredients, and I only recently noticed that the bottle I got to replace it (which I've barely used) was "soy style" sauce and doesn't actually contain any soy.

    That said, the main reason I don't eat soy is habit. It's mostly not in anything I'm used to eating, and the things it's in that I used to eat also contain other things I'm limiting these days. Besides which, how can you tell if the soy in something is GM or not?
    A lot of foods are genetically modified that people are often unaware of. Wasn't it genetically modified salmon that recently got approved? And soon to come GM beef:

    http://www.globaltimes.cn/NEWS/tabid...up-flavor.aspx

    Personally I do not worry myself over GM or not. We can find toxic components to any food. Kind of reminds me of someone else who I was in a debate with who was also bashing soy. So I asked him for a list of his diet. It was full of the same things he was claiming were so dangerous in soy as well as numerous other toxic compounds.

    But human nature tends to be drawn to negativity. So if people here something negative about a substance they would rather accept it as fact than to research the topic to find out if there is even any truth to the claims. For example, look at how many people fell for the claim that rape seed (canola) was used to make mustard gas. This was being repeated all over the net because most people never bothered to research the facts so they did not know that mustard gas was a completely synthetic compound and thus had nothing to do with any plant. Same thing has been happening with soy. People keep repeating the same old misinformation that has been completely disproven because most people are either too lazy to research valid information sources or they are drawn to negativity consciously or subconsciously and so don't want to know the facts.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piscator View Post
    JamesS - one of the big issues for me, which you haven't yet addressed, is the high carbohydrate levels of soy. I've given up grains and legumes, partly to help in weight loss and that has been successful. If there is some nutrient that soy provides that I cannot get in a lower carbohydrate food, then maybe I'd consider adding it to my diet. One thing that PB promotes is that grains (and legumes) provide no nutritional benefit that cannot be obtained from other food - the big benefit being that grains and legumes are a cheap, easy source of calories. So, even if the negative data on soy promoted by WAPF and other groups turns out to be false, there is still a good reason to avoid soy, unless someone needs a cheap source of calories - unlikely here in the F(fat)USA.
    I have not addressed it because it is a much more complex issue than simply carbohydrate content. For example, the fiber content will slow glucose absorption. The phytoestrogens in soy antagonize estrogen, which can cause weight gain otherwise. Then there is the amylase inhibition by soy and some other legumes such as white kidney beans:

    http://apjcn.nhri.org.tw/server/apjc...cles/McCue.pdf

    http://www.aaccnet.org/publications/...nts/69_355.pdf

    In addition, carbohydrates include non-caloric fibers. Soybeans are 60% protein, over double that of beef. Much of the remaining volume is going to be lipids and fibers.

    And people are often under the false assumption that beef is free of sugars, which is not true. A cow's muscles need sugar for energy just like humans. And just like humans when under stress the cow's blood sugar level is going to increase. Such as when they are about to be slaughtered. When the animal is killed those sugars do not magically disappear. So let's look at a comparison of carbohydrate content in beef vs. soy:

    Carbs in Beef

    So beef has 25g per 6 ounces of beef.

    Soy has 5g per ounce, but most existing as non-caloric fiber:

    Carbs in Soy Beans

    With adjustments made for the removal of non-caloric fiber to leave only sugar content this puts the caloric sugar content of soybeans lower than beef.

    Beef also contains estrogens that promote weight gain as where the phytoestrogens in soy antagonize estrogen.

    So again, it is a much more complex issue.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesS View Post
    There is no evidence that the human body is not designed to take in plant fats. In fact, our flora produce beneficial fatty acids just like we derive from the metabolism of plant fats.
    Can you elaborate on this, I thought the primary output of bacterial fibre fermentation in the gut is Short Chain Fatty acids, I could not locate any plant sources of these.

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesS View Post
    Phytoestrogens are not potent. They are extremely weak. The estrogens in beef are potent being hundreds to thousands of times stronger than phytoestrogens. Phytoestrogens are also estrogen antagonists, and thus reduce estrogen that can antagonize testosterone.
    When you refer to Estrogens in beef, are you refering to feedlot cattle?
    My understanding is it is not an issue with grass fed beef.

    The other question I have is your repeated references WAPF and their being funded by the Beef & Dairy industries, I had a look on the site and could not see any overt biases in these areas, they do consider them as part of an overall healthy diet.
    This is their reccomended food guidelines:
    RECOMMENDED NEW GUIDELINES:

    The Weston A. Price Foundation strongly urges the USDA Dietary Guidelines committee to scrap the food pyramid and replace it with the following Healthy 4 Life guidelines, based on four groups of whole foods.

    Every day, eat high quality, whole foods to provide an abundance of nutrients, chosen from each of the following four groups:
    1.Animal foods: meat and organ meats, poultry, and eggs from pastured animals; fish and shellfish; whole raw cheese, milk and other dairy products from pastured animals; and broth made from animal bones.
    2.Grains, legumes and nuts: whole-grain baked goods, breakfast porridges, whole grain rice; beans and lentils; peanuts, cashews and nuts, properly prepared to improve digestibility.
    3.Fruits and Vegetables: preferably fresh or frozen, preferably locally grown, either raw, cooked or in soups and stews, and also as lacto-fermented condiments.
    4.Fats and Oils: unrefined saturated and monounsaturated fats including butter, lard, tallow and other animal fats; palm oil and coconut oil; olive oil; cod liver oil for vitamins A and D.

    Avoid: foods containing refined sweeteners such as candies, sodas, cookies, cakes etc.; white flour products such as pasta and white bread; processed foods; modern soy foods; polyunsaturated and partially hydrogenated vegetable oils and fried foods.

    They do believe Soy is bad, amongst other things.
    Do you actually have any documentation to say they are funded by Beef & Dairy, or is this an assumption because of their opposition to Soy?

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