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  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paysan View Post
    Few people in N.A. eat blood or organs in which estrogen is apt to be found in detectable quantities. Any beef that contained as much estrogen as soy would be very sick, very overweight animals.
    How did you come to that conclusion? Soy does not even contain real estrogen. Phytoestrogens get their name because they have a similar structure to real estrogens. But they are neither the same, nor do they have anywhere close to the same strength as real estrogens. It is like trying to compare the strength of a bicycle to a muscle car.

  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post
    Strike one for soy: It's not Primal.

    It's a legume and, in anything other than the edamame out of the shell form, it's a processed food.

    Strike two for soy: I don't like it. It's gross.

    Let's see, I could have a gritty watery milk-like substance or I could drink some raw real milk.
    I could have a grass fed burger or I could have a cardboard replica of one made out of "textured vegetable protein" and who knows what else. I could have a squidgy cheese-like substance that never melts right on my burger or maybe just have some real cheese.
    Do you cook that burger? Cooking is a form of processing. For that matter unless you are chewing on the whole dead cow that meat went through a variety of processing to get it the form of ground beef.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post
    I could have all meat sausages or I could have a tofu dog. Nuff said.
    I could have a squidgy white flavorless substance known as tofu in my stir-fry or I could have some shrimp and scallops.
    Hmmm..... Shrimp and scallops. Yes, nothing like scavengers and filter feeders to get your daily dose of ocean toxins. Great for cancer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post
    Strike three for soy : Possible potential breast cancer risk

    We can debate about phytoestrogens until the free range cows come home. There are just as many studies saying it's carcinogenic and saying it's preventative against cancer, some poorly done, some scientifically sound, some obvious shills and some independent research, on both sides of the issue. Plus others that say it makes no difference. This puts it firmly in the "We Really Don't Know For Sure Yet" category in my mind.
    The ONLY studies I have seen claiming they could cause cancer were rat studies where the rats were given massive doses of isolated phytoestrogens. Using the same reason what do you think would happen if they gave those same rats massive doses of the isolated real estrogens from the cows you are consuming? Especially considering these estrogens are tens of thousands to hundreds of thousand times stronger than phytoestrogens.

    And what plants do you eat? Are you aware that EVERY SINGLE PLANT humans eat contain phytoestrogens?


    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post
    Given the above two strikes, it's not Primal and I don't like it anyway, why should I take a risk that maybe the research on the cancer danger side turns out to be true? Anecdotal, I know, but I ate a lot of soy growing up with 70's health freak parents and continued to do so until I got breast cancer at 45. Now I choose to err on the side of caution for my own personal safety.

    So that's three strikes. Soy, you're out of my diet.
    I still find it interesting that you are worried about phytoestrogens that have been shown in numerous studies to be cancer protective but you have no problem with the estrogens in beef that are considerably stronger than phytoestrogens.

  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post
    So, for me, the question really isn't ,"Why not eat soy", it's "Why?" It doesn't give me anything nutritionally that I can't find in a better tasting form, IMO, from animal sources. Why take the risk that it may be carcinogenic for a tofu dog?
    Yet you take the risk with proven carcinogenic beef that contains real estrogens.

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by canuck416 View Post
    Reminds me of the experience my sister and brother-in-law had on the "Farm" a commune in Tennessee during the late 60s and 70s. They embraced vegetarianism and grew their own soy. They ate plenty of seasonal vegetables but their primary source of protein was Soy. They were always sick, tired and run down. Their son developed cancer and died, they moved off the Farm started eating meat and have recently embraced a Paleo style diet and are a vibrant healthy family. They swear that soy was the cause of their constant battle with illness and possibly their son's death. Very anecdotal but it makes you think.
    Strict vegetarians can develop B12 deficiency anemia after a few years. Decreased B12 also increases the risk of cancer from reduced methylation. None of this has anything to do with soy consumption. I don't advocate any strict diet for this exact reason. All strict diets have their limitations and problems.

  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post

    "The main sources of support for the Weston A. Price Foundation are the dues and contributions of its members. The Foundation receives no funding from any government agency or food processing corporation. Although many of our members are farmers, the Foundation has no ties with the meat or dairy industry, nor with any organization promoting these industries. The Foundation promotes the production of food by independent farmers and artisans, and not by industry.
    the members are:

    Vital Choice
    U.S. Wellness Meats

    Among many others

  6. #116
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    [QUOTE=Paleobird;933808]I really think that leading a pro-soy charge by bashing on the WAPF is weaksauce. This is from their webpage where they display their income and expenses openly for the world to see going back several years. WAPF Funding - Weston A Price Foundation

    "The main sources of support for the Weston A. Price Foundation are the dues and contributions of its members. The Foundation receives no funding from any government agency or food processing corporation. Although many of our members are farmers, the Foundation has no ties with the meat or dairy industry, nor with any organization promoting these industries. The Foundation promotes the production of food by independent farmers and artisans, and not by industry.

    No ties to the beef or dairy industry? Then why on their tax returns do they have listed under their expenses "campaign-real milk"? Sure sounds like a tie to the dairy industry to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post
    I don't agree with everything the WAPF says, e.g. I don't do sprouted grains, but I think attacking their integrity is un-called for.
    These are interesting videos on WAPF's finances. Looks like they they are pretty creative when it comes to this as well. I especially like the part where the head of WAPF shows a zero income yet they paid out $170,000 for three employees of WAPF and she is listed as the only one working close to full time. Also note how vague they are there as well as to their income sources.

    Is the Weston A. Price Foundation Truly a Charity? (1 of 2) - YouTube

    Is the Weston A. Price Foundation Truly a Charity? (2 of 2) - YouTube

  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post
    Very true. The WAPF may not always be right about everything but they are not anybody's paid shills. That's just silly. I wouldn't put it past the soy industry,however, to pay people to go around posting misinformation on the internet. Hmmm. I wonder why a certain poster was SO adamant that we debate the topic of soy and followed me around several threads trying to "call me out" on the subject even though it was totally irrelevant to the topics at hand and then insisted that this thread be created. It seemed like he was just itching for an excuse to whip out his list o' links. Hmmm?

    Also, as long as the jury is still out and "we don't know" about soy, I'm not taking a chance on something that offers me nothing but tasteless squidginess in return.
    I asked you to state specifically what you think is toxic about soy. So far all you have even got close to responding with is phytoestrogens, which are found in all plants we consume and are significantly weaker than the real estrogens in the beef you consume.

  8. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by onalark View Post
    Soy sauce is still pretty friggin' delicious...as an accent to meat. :3

    Pretty much everything I was going to say has been said. I don't agree with WAPF 100% and I think they're kind of crazy on some subjects, and I agree they seem to have some sort of epic-level hard-on against soy, but I also don't believe they're being funded by anti-soy lobbyists. If they are, they are spectacularly unsuccessful. If there is an anti-soy lobby, they'd be better off funneling money into places like McDonald's, not an eccentric organization like WAPF. And why the beef and dairy industry would hate on soy when it's primarily used to feed their livestock is beyond me. Sounds like conspiracy-theorist propaganda.

    In my own n=1 experiment, I feel ditching soy has improved my thyroid and overall health. I ate a LOT of soy when I was a vegan. I also, coincidentally, wound up with elevated cholesterol and had to have my thyroid dose upped. I don't know for certain if these two are related, and it's totally anecdotal, but I'm not exactly missing the stuff anymore.
    Nobody said anything about anti-soy lobbyists. Why do people keep putting their own twist on things and adding things that were never said? This is how all the bogus propaganda about soy has grown as well.

  9. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omni View Post
    Another one, Soy supplement over 5 years increasing incidence of Endometrial Hyperplasia.
    Endometrial effects of long-term treatment wit... [Fertil Steril. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI
    A pilot study of the effects ... [J Soc Gynecol Investig. 2002 Jul-Aug] - PubMed - NCBI

    J Soc Gynecol Investig. 2002 Jul-Aug;9(4):238-42.
    A pilot study of the effects of phytoestrogen supplementation on postmenopausal endometrium.
    Balk JL, Whiteside DA, Naus G, DeFerrari E, Roberts JM.
    Source

    Department of Obstetrics, Gynecology, and Reproductive Sciences, Magee-Womens Hospital, University of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15213, USA. rsijlb@mail.magee.edu
    Abstract
    OBJECTIVE:

    This study was designed to assess endometrial histology in postmenopausal women not taking hormone replacement therapy, to evaluate side effects and efficacy of phytoestrogens in treating menopause-associated symptoms, and to determine whether 6 months of phytoestrogen supplementation altered endometrial histology.
    METHODS:

    We performed a prospective, double-blinded, randomized, placebo-controlled trial comparing the effects of 6 months of dietary phytoestrogen supplementation versus placebo in postmenopausal women. Baseline endometrial biopsies were performed and, if adequate, nonhyperplastic, noncancerous, and nonovulatory, subjects were randomly assigned to receive daily placebo or soy cereal supplementation for 6 months. Study subjects completed baseline and weekly dietary, symptom, and side effect logs. Repeat endometrial biopsies were obtained at 6 months.
    RESULTS:

    Subjects were recruited from January 1998 through June 2000. Twenty-seven subjects were randomized, and 19 completed the study. One (3.7%) baseline endometrial sample was weakly proliferative. All other baseline and final biopsies were consistent with atrophic, inactive endometrium. The maximum risk of endometrial stimulation with phytoestrogens is 35%. Hot flushes, night sweats, and vaginal dryness were significantly less severe at the final week of the study compared with baseline in the placebo group. Insomnia was more common in the treated group. There were no other statistically significant differences in symptoms or side effects.
    CONCLUSION:

    Phytoestrogens did not cause stimulation of the endometrium. Insomnia was more frequent over the 6-month study in the soy group, whereas hot flushes, night sweats, and vaginal dryness improved from baseline in the placebo group but not in the soy group.

  10. #120
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    Primal Blueprint Expert Certification
    Quote Originally Posted by Omni View Post
    And here's one for the tiny tots on baby Soy.
    After 10 days supplementing at same Soy rate as baby formula, there was a reduction in intestinal cell proliferation and migration.

    http://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/2449/PDF
    In piglets, not humans. I guess chocolate is deadly to humans as well since it will kill a dog. Animal studies rarely correlate to humans.

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