Why are people so concerned with weight-loss? page 32

[Kelmar]

Meepster...I agree...with the tons of information out there on how "to be healthy" people could be doing more damage to themselves than good. And I also agree that mental health is very important for overall health as well....see, I was judging as well... based on what I have come to think of as healthy...and I what have come to value in my life. Personally I do not think your career should be more important than your health because if your dead you can't eat either...but I could get hit by a bus on my way across the street tonight...won't be eating much that way either. This thread could go on and on about my opinion this and your opinion that....it is interesting to me to read what other people think....we are all so different..

[TheFastCat]

"Self-actualization" or "self-improvement" comes in many forms. It's reductionist to think of "self-improvement" as merely improving one's physical form. Shouldn't we also want to improve our minds? How many foreign languages do you speak? How are your math skills? How is your memory? How well-informed are you about current affairs, science, literature, the arts? How many sonnets have you written? For that matter, how much poetry have you memorized? Can you read Greek and Latin, and are you familiar with the Greek and Latin classics? Shouldn't a well-rounded person focus on their mental abilities as well as their physical abilities?

I actually was graduated with a degree in Classics, translated the Aeneid and lots of prose, poetry over my seven years of studying it. I have traveled to 21 foreign countries so far, sit in front of a computer at work 8.5 hours a day and exercise with crossfit, yoga and oly lifting six days a week an average of 1.5 hours a day. I have being Prileo for 2.5 years now. I took the piano for three years as a child before realizing I hated it and could just listen to other people play music instead of having to do it myself. I am very driven to expand my knowledge, experiences, performance and growth in all areas of my lift -- health included.

So while I agree with your sentiment that an individual should be vested in expanding their limitations and experiences in all areas of their life, though once again am at odds with your insinuation that being healthy comes at the expense of education, culture and learning. You *can* do it all.

[meepster]

Meepster...I agree...with the tons of information out there on how "to be healthy" people could be doing more damage to themselves than good. And I also agree that mental health is very important for overall health as well....see, I was judging as well... based on what I have come to think of as healthy...and I what have come to value in my life. Personally I do not think your career should be more important than your health because if your dead you can't eat either...but I could get hit by a bus on my way across the street tonight...won't be eating much that way either. This thread could go on and on about my opinion this and your opinion that....it is interesting to me to read what other people think....we are all so different..

Of course! That's the great thing about these online forums - the free exchange of ideas.

I've been thinking about this some more, and I think I disagree with the fundamental assumption here - that good health requires "work" and willpower to maintain. The assumption, which I'm seeing in a lot of these posts, is a Calvinist one: our default state is fat and lazy, and the only way to maintain "health" (which always means "thinness") is by neverending vigilance and willpower and hard work. The disdain for the fat I'm seeing in this thread, and elsewhere, is the same as the disdain a medieval Christian would feel for the "sinners" - however "sin" is defined. They could be living a Godly life, but they are going to burn in hell because they just don't want to give up earthly pleasures - or to go to church every day - or to perform some other ritual that doesn't feel good, but that is going to save their immortal souls (such as, for example, refraining from gay sex if you're gay). Puritanism is alive and well, it seems.

Note also that the hypocritical concern for "health" (I'm not judging you because you're fat, I just want you to be healthy!) is exactly the same as the hypocritical concern for one's immortal soul that leads the Southern Baptists to picket gay people's funerals. They are not just being bullies for the sake of being bullies - they're trying to save our souls! See - they're the good guys!

You can also see this Calvinist mentality play out in the curious silence of the 'health'-minded bullies on the issue of sleep. Sleep deprivation is a contributor to weight gain - it makes people fat. It's also very very harmful to one's health - it increases the risk of cancer, heart disease, stroke, just about anything you can think of. But since sleep feels good, and since sleeping in is a sign of "laziness", you never see the anti-fat bullies promote adequate sleep; instead, you see them promoting the opposite - getting up 1 hour early to make time for the gym. Because that's unpleasant and a good punishment for the sin of being fat.

Personally, I'm not a Calvinist, and I think good health should be effortless. I want good health to be easy to maintain, and I'm structuring my life to make it so. I want to live in the kind of neighborhood where I can walk everywhere instead of living in the kind of neighborhood where I have to drive 20 minutes to get to the gym and jog on a treadmill. I want to have the kind of job where I get to pick my own working hours instead of spending 5 days a week fighting my own internal clock and depriving myself of sleep. I want to move my body because it's fun, not because I have to "stay healthy". I want healthy food to be easy to obtain. Basically, I want to structure my life so I can't help it but be healthy.

Interestingly enough, when I quit my 80-hour-a-week job to start my own business, and started eating better food and sleeping normal hours and getting enough rest, I lost 10 lbs. without trying. I did not feel deprived - quite the opposite, in fact. I did not add any self-flagellation rituals to my life. I just removed a major stressor.

[Uncephalized]

Of course! That's the great thing about these online forums - the free exchange of ideas.

I've been thinking about this some more, and I think I disagree with the fundamental assumption here - that good health requires "work" and willpower to maintain. The assumption, which I'm seeing in a lot of these posts, is a Calvinist one: our default state is fat and lazy, and the only way to maintain "health" (which always means "thinness") is by neverending vigilance and willpower and hard work. The disdain for the fat I'm seeing in this thread, and elsewhere, is the same as the disdain a medieval Christian would feel for the "sinners" - however "sin" is defined. They could be living a Godly life, but they are going to burn in hell because they just don't want to give up earthly pleasures - or to go to church every day - or to perform some other ritual that doesn't feel good, but that is going to save their immortal souls (such as, for example, refraining from gay sex if you're gay). Puritanism is alive and well, it seems.

Note also that the hypocritical concern for "health" (I'm not judging you because you're fat, I just want you to be healthy!) is exactly the same as the hypocritical concern for one's immortal soul that leads the Southern Baptists to picket gay people's funerals. They are not just being bullies for the sake of being bullies - they're trying to save our souls! See - they're the good guys!

You can also see this Calvinist mentality play out in the curious silence of the 'health'-minded bullies on the issue of sleep. Sleep deprivation is a contributor to weight gain - it makes people fat. It's also very very harmful to one's health - it increases the risk of cancer, heart disease, stroke, just about anything you can think of. But since sleep feels good, and since sleeping in is a sign of "laziness", you never see the anti-fat bullies promote adequate sleep; instead, you see them promoting the opposite - getting up 1 hour early to make time for the gym. Because that's unpleasant and a good punishment for the sin of being fat.

Personally, I'm not a Calvinist, and I think good health should be effortless. I want good health to be easy to maintain, and I'm structuring my life to make it so. I want to live in the kind of neighborhood where I can walk everywhere instead of living in the kind of neighborhood where I have to drive 20 minutes to get to the gym and jog on a treadmill. I want to have the kind of job where I get to pick my own working hours instead of spending 5 days a week fighting my own internal clock and depriving myself of sleep. I want to move my body because it's fun, not because I have to "stay healthy". I want healthy food to be easy to obtain. Basically, I want to structure my life so I can't help it but be healthy.

Interestingly enough, when I quit my 80-hour-a-week job to start my own business, and started eating better food and sleeping normal hours and getting enough rest, I lost 10 lbs. without trying. I did not feel deprived - quite the opposite, in fact. I did not add any self-flagellation rituals to my life. I just removed a major stressor.

A thousand times this.

[MoodyGirl]

I have really focused on the weight loss because it was SO overdue for me. However, I am NOT counting calories or carbs. I'm eating whole healthy foods and enjoying every minute of it. People look at my lunch and drool! In fact, I usually can't even finish all my lunch at one sitting, so I keep some for an afternoon boredom killer.

[sbhikes]

The last "cycle" was about 1400 calories of low fat vegetarian a day combined with doing the Insanity workouts (35 minutes of hard work) followed by an hour run 5 days a week, plus horseback riding plus a weekly run of 10 plus miles. When that amount of effort leads to nothing but back pain (after 4 months, no scale loss, no change in clothes fit), you begin to question if improving is worth it.

I think on this forum in particular, there are more people with my story- (fat and fit, so to speak), and we probably get more pissy then the general population when people start throwing around the idea that for whatever reason fat people don't make enough effort.

Yeah, look at David Attia. This fatty swam across the ocean to Catalina Island. Swimming to one of the Channel Islands is quite an accomplishment.



Look at this fatty! He has hiked up and down the length and width of the United States. Hiking across the US isn't enough to keep him skinny. It wasn't enough to keep me skinny, either.

[meepster]

I actually was graduated with a degree in Classics, translated the Aeneid and lots of prose, poetry over my seven years of studying it. I have traveled to 21 foreign countries so far, sit in front of a computer at work 8.5 hours a day and exercise with crossfit, yoga and oly lifting six days a week an average of 1.5 hours a day. I have being Prileo for 2.5 years now. I took the piano for three years as a child before realizing I hated it and could just listen to other people play music instead of having to do it myself. I am very driven to expand my knowledge, experiences, performance and growth in all areas of my lift -- health included.

So while I agree with your sentiment that an individual should be vested in expanding their limitations and experiences in all areas of their life, though once again am at odds with your insinuation that being healthy comes at the expense of education, culture and learning. You *can* do it all.

Oh, I agree with you - I just think that most of the buff and ripped fat-haters here have not, in fact, obtained a degree in Classics or translated the Aeneid. In fact, I'd think that fat-hate, and the level of immaturity it indicates, should be inversely correlated with intellectual accomplishment of any kind.

[Winterbike]

I think you're biased because you're surrounded by athletes all the time. I'm surrounded by musicians and lawyers all the time; that's my social circle. Quite a few of them are overweight - sitting at a piano 8 hours a day doesn't leave a lot of room for other activities. Neither does sitting at a desk all day. These are awesome people who are focused on things other than health and fitness most of the time. Sure, they may occasionally go for a walk or get a workout at the gym, and they may occasionally think about eating "healthy", but they're not laser-focused on health and fitness the way your athlete friends probably are. They've got other concerns - preparing for an upcoming concert tour, learning a new piece of music, preparing for trial, volunteering at whatever thing they volunteer in, whatever. And yes, some of them are fat. Some of them are worrying about how to lose weight. Some of them don't care - they've got more important things to do.

I'm one of those too, btw. I've got my health/fitness needs more or less dialed in, and now I don't obsess anymore. I don't spend hours working out at the gym, I don't count my carbs or calories or whatever. I just live my life, don't keep any wheat or sugar products around the house, and focus on things other than health/fitness. I'm staying reasonably slim this way, so I guess it's working. If there was any justice in the world, I'd weigh 300 lbs - but there isn't.

My athlete friends and the guys I train with all have amazing careers outside of the sports they practice. My rugby team in college was a mix of engineers, lawyers and doctors. The average education for my BJJ friends at the is probably around a Bachelor's degree and higher also.

The thing with health and being fit is that it helps every other aspect of your life. You can be a great pianist and be unhealthy and fat, but you'd be even better if you were healthy and fit. Better focus, more happiness, better sleep and better recuperation, it's the whole package deal. You're great despite your body, when it could be launching you even further.

[meepster]

My athlete friends and the guys I train with all have amazing careers outside of the sports they practice. My rugby team in college was a mix of engineers, lawyers and doctors. The average education for my BJJ friends at the is probably around a Bachelor's degree and higher also.

The thing with health and being fit is that it helps every other aspect of your life. You can be a great pianist and be unhealthy and fat, but you'd be even better if you were healthy and fit. Better focus, more happiness, better sleep and better recuperation, it's the whole package deal. You're great despite your body, when it could be launching you even further.

Oh, I agree - there's a reason why I'm on this site. I try to live as healthy a lifestyle as I can (though I'm not much into sports). But note that what Mark recommends to promote health and fitness goes far beyond the CW "jog an hour a day, lift some weights, and count calories" approach. Just losing weight, in and of itself, won't make you healthy. We all know that. Health does not necessarily involve being an athlete (a lot of athletes end up injured at a young age, which is hardly healthy) - it involves optimal functioning of your body and mind. This means that you shouldn't just focus on playing sports. Yeah, sports are fun if you are into this sort of thing. But for health, you also need to focus on emotional equilibrium, social connections, sex life, mental agility, avoidance of stress, adequate sleep, employment that satisfies and fulfills you, a social role that satisfies and fulfills you, and so on and so forth. We're more than just muscles and fat. We're social animals. Optimal functioning involves far more than a regular workout and a healthy diet, as important as those things are.

Many of my friends are elderly - in their 60's, 70's and 80's. By looking at them, I see what is important in reaching old age in good condition. None of these people are athletes - yeah, one of them runs marathons a lot at the age of 70 or so, and one sweet old lady has lost a lot of weight by going to Curves and watching her calories, but for the most part they're not the sort of folks who work out - but they are healthy, vital, and happy, at an advanced age. I know these folks through music, and I see them go to all the concerts they can possibly get to, go to the after-party following the concert, and have fun until 3am. I hope I reach old age with that sort of clear mind and that sort of energy. Social connections and a healthy family life are, I think, as important as a healthy diet and good exercise, if not more so.

[Leida]

In fact, I attribute my current slim figure and healthy appearance to the fact that I never embraced any conventional theories on Getting Healthy. Jogging? Nah - too lazy. Going on some extreme diet the moment I see a single fat cell? Nah - too gluttonous. Waking up at 5am to go exercise every morning? Are you kidding me? Vegetarianism? Tried it, lasted a month, felt like I was starving all the time - no thank you. Fake sugar? Blergh. Calorie counting? Forget it. Mind you, I don't actively set out to ruin my health by eating junk food or smoking or whatever - but neither have I ruined my health by CW theories on "healthy living" (chronic cardio, low-fat eating, and so on). Those can be just as damaging. (marathon runners have heart damage similar to that found in heart-disease patients) Moreover, obsessional thinking, even if it is about healthy food, is very bad for your mental health - and mental health is part of "health", isn't it?

I think it depends on what you find attractive if you are not prompted by a nutritional philosophy of one kind or another. If I cleaned my mind of any knowledge of nutrients and what not, and just concentrated inwards, and started eating what I am inclined to eating/craving, what I will end up with would be something like:

Hot buckwheat or millet or rice porridge with milk and sugar or quark with home made berry jam for breakfast; fruit and cheese with veggies sandwich for lunch; meat and veggie soup with pumpernickel and mustard bread and sour cream or potatoes with fish fried in oil (not deep fried) or stew with something pickled for supper and more fruit and a pastry/candy with tea or kefir with fruit and bread. All food would be home-made, even bread. I would go for walks, lots of walks and work in the garden. And sit in the office the rest of the day.

That's neither CW, nor PB, nor paleo, nor vegetarian, I don't think it's even SAD... and I will gain weight on that kindda 'normal' eating like crazy. I probably will be overweight before the year was out if I started eating like that tomorrow, gaining 40 lbs. I keep telling myself I will be eating that way once I no longer care; before I thought it will be when I am 60 yo. Now I doubt that number.... I was reading this book yesterday, and a character that is in AA there says that she was told by others that an alcoholic would always miss alcohol. So, I guess, I will always miss that way of eating, as I cram in coconut oil, eggs and seaweed, skip meals and train myself to use Authoritative NO when I walk by a tree full of ripening apples.