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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knifegill View Post
    Many people have neanderthal genes. That is known. But some theories suggest that many autism traits may be neanderthal behavior to a degree, or a distorted form of it. Some evidence that supports these ideas include high-protein diets being effective in controlling a lot of asperger's traits, and neanderthal was a big game hunter.

    The Neanderthal Theory of Autism

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    Neanderthal theory of Autism and occipital bun - General Autism Discussion

    Neanderthal anatomy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Check those traits against some autistic people!
    Thanks Knifegill! Very interesting!

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaye View Post
    For me the next big thing is Tribe.

    I thought Tribe should have been in Mark's PB rules and thought it was weird when human connections weren't included in the list. I do understand why one might want to leave it out, though, because if you follow that topic too far down the rabbit hole it gets political and starts to undermine the myth of the nuclear family being the "natural" social structure of humans.

    Anyway, I'll use my life as an example. Starts with a narcissistic father and a passive mother (from a long line of others like them and each generation getting progressively more isolated and mentally ill). The ONLY way I made it out was by the influence of elementary school teachers that gave a s**t. Fast-forward to my life now. Few family connections due to above and my husband and I decided not to have children for environmental reasons. So...I've had to fill my need for tribe/family with friends. I am making a greater effort to really search out people with similar worldviews and overlook trivial character "flaws" (that would have been deal-breakers in the past) in order to have many strong, trusting, human relationships. I crave time with children and also with other women. I think that's natural. Most women fill the first need by having children - but then I've witnessed many of my friends become isolated by the insane time requirements involved in both working and taking care of children. Tribe solves that problem.

    It's a really difficult thing to do. This social system depends on competition between individuals and that leads to isolation. One of the things I've done is to stop comparing myself to other women. Women do this all the time and it's so counter-productive!

    Anyway, there is a lot more to this but I thought I'd at least throw the idea out there.

    +1

  3. #53
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    I'd add specific ancestry as it relates to personal health need to be explored, too!

    I mean, I don't like people. i don't like their games and their secret gestures and faces that seem to mean nothing until everybody knows something I don't. Being in a group of people is like war to me, and my only weapons are cliches and rote recital of what I've heard other people say in response. People ask me what I'm up to, and they don't really care. It's just an empty excuse to bond and feel close. Bull crap. If you don't care how I'm doing then don't ask. Most things people say are just useless, or baited ways to start arguments. I'm always happier on my own, where I can make animal noises and sing as loud as I want, without fear of rebuttal from some human.

    So you need for social interaction is yours. My need for social interaction is the same as my need for a fork in the eye.


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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knifegill View Post
    While sapiens was very social, neanderthal was not. Males were largely intolerant of each other, limiting the average group to between 3 and seven members, mostly female, if I recall correctly. So base your "need" for humans on your ancestry, not on textbook norms.
    I would suggest you base your social behavior on your personal feelings and honest introspection, rather than textbook norms OR your theoretical inheritance of Neanderthal personality traits, personally, but that's me.

    If I, myself, feel the need to be around people, it's not really relevant if I am 5% H. neanderthalis. Likewise, if I am non-social it's not really relevant if I am 100% H. sapiens--either way my personal social needs are what matter to me.

    The hypothetical Neanderthal-autism thing is very interesting though, from a sociological/epidemiological/high-level view.
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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knifegill View Post
    I'd add specific ancestry as it relates to personal health need to be explored, too!

    I mean, I don't like people. i don't like their games and their secret gestures and faces that seem to mean nothing until everybody knows something I don't. Being in a group of people is like war to me, and my only weapons are cliches and rote recital of what I've heard other people say in response. People ask me what I'm up to, and they don't really care. It's just an empty excuse to bond and feel close. Bull crap. If you don't care how I'm doing then don't ask. Most things people say are just useless, or baited ways to start arguments. I'm always happier on my own, where I can make animal noises and sing as loud as I want, without fear of rebuttal from some human.

    So you need for social interaction is yours. My need for social interaction is the same as my need for a fork in the eye.
    I feel you Knifegill! I really do. I can't stand social interaction like what you describe above. That is definitely not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about finding people that will grunt like an animal with me or sing along at the top of THEIR lungs. People that you have a deep relation to - not the superficial interactions that are societal expectations.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knifegill View Post
    I'd add specific ancestry as it relates to personal health need to be explored, too!

    I mean, I don't like people. i don't like their games and their secret gestures and faces that seem to mean nothing until everybody knows something I don't.
    This is very interesting to me. Because of course, to "normals" (scare quotes are intended to convey that I don't think there is anything better about being normal, just that it's more typical), the "games" are largely unspoken shared assumptions, the "secret gestures" are transparently meaningful, and the "meaningless faces" are expressive (though sometimes deceptive) signals of intent and emotion. Together they make up a large portion of the actual communication that occurs between "normals" in face-to-face communication. But of course if your brain does not fluently and automatically translate them as such, then I can see that it would be very difficult to communicate face-to-face, especially with someone who is unaware of the imbalance in the conversation and is making no effort to accommodate the perceptual difference.

    Do you mind if I ask you more questions? If you do of course feel free not to answer or whatever...

    Quote Originally Posted by Knifegill View Post
    Being in a group of people is like war to me, and my only weapons are cliches and rote recital of what I've heard other people say in response. People ask me what I'm up to, and they don't really care. It's just an empty excuse to bond and feel close. Bull crap. If you don't care how I'm doing then don't ask.
    This makes me want to know: do you have any close friends? Do you feel the need for connection to other people in any form? Do you think that the questions people ask you ever do come from genuine interest, rather than rote social nicety? I ask largely because I feel that when I ask such questions of friends, I usually ask with a real desire to know what is going on in their lives and what interests them. But when I ask these things of strangers or casual acquaintances, it's equivalent to saying "please" and "thank you"--just something you say at the correct time to be polite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knifegill View Post
    Most things people say are just useless, or baited ways to start arguments. I'm always happier on my own, where I can make animal noises and sing as loud as I want, without fear of rebuttal from some human.
    From my perspective, a lot of the things people say and do are rituals designed to minimize conflict within the in-group, mark people as either conspicuously "us" or "them", and conduct daily business in a way that is unlikely to result in violence. So a lot of it ends up being redundant and ritualistic because people are following a formula. Disrupting the formula is a good way to cause tension, so people naturally tend to chastise (by hostile actions such as nasty facial expressions, arguing, yelling, or obviously and intentionally ignoring the perpetrator) whoever deviates, out of fear of conflict. There are probably lots of other motivations too but that's one I perceive often. So I want to ask: what kinds of conversations do you have with people that you do consider non-trivial? And do you feel best on your own because the experience of being alone is inherently "good", or because the behavior of most/all people is uncomfortable or irritating to you, or some of both, or am I way off base entirely?

    Quote Originally Posted by Knifegill View Post
    So you need for social interaction is yours. My need for social interaction is the same as my need for a fork in the eye.
    Last few questions: does online social interaction (like this forum) feel more satisfying to you than IRL interaction? Is it just different? And do you think your aversion is a learned reaction from being "burned" before, or just the way you're wired up, to like people less than most people do?

    This is all fascinating to me partly because my good friend's brother has Asperger's, and I know it caused a lot of conflict int he household, especially with their dad (who is kind of a prick, but that's a different story). My perception was always that he was a pretty decent guy who was fine to talk to as long as you kept in mind that you couldn't expect him to read your face or tone, or to intuitively "get" the subtle social implications of things. I find that as long as I make an effort to "translate" as much of what I would normally convey through tone and expression into explicit words, it's not a lot of trouble to interact with him at all, and in fact I usually find his observations and thoughts rather interesting. But of course I don't know if he feels similarly or would rather I left him alone.

    It seems like a similar problem as when you are trying to talk with someone who is not fluent in your language; you avoid idioms and subtlety, you simplify your grammar somewhat to make your words as easy to pick out as possible, you speak clearly and carefully without yelling or speaking unreasonably slowly, and you say the same thing multiple ways, using different words whenever possible to work around any holes in the other person's vocabulary. But a lot of people seem to have trouble consciously modulating their speech in this way, and so the conversation devolves into a lot of yelling and waving of hands and repeating the same words, only louder, in the vain hope that volume will make up for lack of comprehension somehow. I wonder if this isn't what often happens between autistics and "normals" a lot of the time too--the "normals" don't know how to or won't make the effort to translate their body language into comprehensible words, and so everyone ends up pissed off.
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    Leida - I'm sure you're right - that it is definitely not the same. I'm just not willing to create another industrial human for my own selfish desire to feel that experience.
    Aww, all you need to do is to scratch out 'industrial' and 'selfish'. That's the lies. Human and desire are what's real in your words. Well, imho. But I come from the ideology that expected and legislated sacrifice of personal happiness for common good, and I came to abhor the concept. It made a society more miserable as a whole, despite aiming for the opposite, lol.
    Last edited by Leida; 08-16-2012 at 08:52 AM.
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  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leida View Post
    Aww, all you need to do is to scratch out 'industrial' and 'selfish'. That's the lies. Human and desire are what's real in your words. Well, imho. But I come from the ideology that expected and legislated sacrifice of personal happiness for common good, and I came to abhor the concept. It made a society more miserable as a whole, despite aiming for the opposite, lol.
    Hey Leida. Those words aren't lies to me. My choice to not have children was MY choice, not from an expected and legislated sacrifice for the common good. I weighed the needs of my landbase against my "need" to have biological children and my landbase won.

    By the way, I believe that selfishness is a natural part of biology so, though it may read like some big negative judgement on motherhood, it's not. I think "selfish desire" could be easily replaced with "instinct." And in a different time and place I would have gladly let that mothering instinct play out.

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