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  1. #151
    Neckhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasputina View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean. I'm a female, my husband is male. We were married in a Christian church, our marriage is recognized by both the state and the church. Our female minister, who is a lesbian, cannot be married in our state, yet she can legally officiate our "traditional" marriage. My point is that, this isn't fair.
    Well she can not be legally recognized as married, but she could go the ceremony with a willing minister couldn't she? Just wondering. Or does the church follow state laws? And if they do follow state laws seems kinda weird they would have a lesbian minister in that state....many ministers seem to get assignment don't they? I'll admit I'm neither gay nor very religious so I don't know much about the rules here.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by brighthorse View Post
    I appreciate your fierce opinion and support but I am fairly certain that gay marriage is allowed in Canada. Thanks!
    Um, yes it is. Your point?

    As a non-American I can't be pissed at such an stupid establishment?
    Last edited by patski; 08-04-2012 at 07:33 PM.
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  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neckhammer View Post
    Guess I don't understand the debate. Gay people are not being stopped from doing shit, just not recognized as being married. Isn't marriage a religious thing? I understand the legal implications, but like noodle pointed out and I'm sure many realize....there are ways to take care of that right?

    Really it doesn't matter to me, but there are plenty of injustices in regards to personal freedoms in this country that we all turn a blind eye to. We could argue all of them, but we would just end up in another pointless thread filled with debate and no resolution.

    The guy is for traditional families. So what. A lot of people are. Are gay people lobbying to get marriage passed? Is he breaking the law by doing the opposite?
    What?

    Are you saying only religious people get married?

    Logic fail.

    Cathy really ought to point the finger at FAILED marriages, you know, the ones that end in divorce every year. What is the stat now...over 60%? But oh no, point the finger at TEH GAYZ. Yeah, cuz we're doing such an amazeballs job at ruining the 'sanctity of marriage'.
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  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neckhammer View Post
    Well she can not be legally recognized as married, but she could go the ceremony with a willing minister couldn't she? Just wondering. Or does the church follow state laws? And if they do follow state laws seems kinda weird they would have a lesbian minister in that state....many ministers seem to get assignment don't they? I'll admit I'm neither gay nor very religious so I don't know much about the rules here.
    As far as I know, churches can 'marry' anyone they see fit, however, if the state fails to recognize the union it is little more than a feel good gesture or a show of commitment. Pretty much it would have the same weight as my buddy saying, "Grats, you two are married!" and the state saying, "Uh, no."

    No rights as married people means for all relevant legal purposes not married. It seems to me that the non-traditional marriage crowd (in which I include homosexuals, polygamists etc) abandoned the word marriage they would get far more done far more quickly. A marriage conjures up pictures of churches which make many traditional church folks freak out. Where as civil union or legally binding commitment contract or whatever (which is pretty much all a marriage certificate is at least to the state) is not threatening at all. Go for gay nuptial contracts get the legal rights of a married couple then find a church to 'marry' you so you have the best of both worlds.

    What is an opposed person going to say? "I am against a legal financial contract between two adults because uh...I...um...well, God says that...uh, my church...my....fuck." Pretty soon you will have hundreds of thousands of married gay couples around and it will be too mainstream for anyone to even care.

    I know, not the sun shine and roses beacon of equality and all, but people are dumb. WTF can you do?

  5. #155
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    If we (by 'we' I mean gay people) abandon the semantics of using the word 'marriage', then it won't be seen in the same light. Yes, people are exceptionally stupid. But that doesn't mean we should stop using the 'marriage' because those nupties don't like it. Too effing bad.

    I just got married, and we didn't do it in a church. In fact, most people that I know who've been married in the last few years have not been married in a church.
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  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neckhammer View Post
    Guess I don't understand the debate. Gay people are not being stopped from doing shit, just not recognized as being married. Isn't marriage a religious thing? I understand the legal implications, but like noodle pointed out and I'm sure many realize....there are ways to take care of that right?

    Really it doesn't matter to me, but there are plenty of injustices in regards to personal freedoms in this country that we all turn a blind eye to. We could argue all of them, but we would just end up in another pointless thread filled with debate and no resolution.

    The guy is for traditional families. So what. A lot of people are. Are gay people lobbying to get marriage passed? Is he breaking the law by doing the opposite?
    As I also explained the state legal union document (marriage license) covers a veritable MOUNTAIN of legalities in one easy, fast, and inexpensive stroke of the pen.
    To enact all of the legalities entitled to married couples (including those who don't have anything to do with "church marriage") takes a load of planning, multiple legal documents, possibly hiring a lawyer, and most likely continuing to have those documents reviewed and rewritten every few years to keep them up to date as circumstances change.
    THIS is why it is an issue.
    It is burdening a group of people to a separate circumstance based purely on discrimination...
    Much like making black people use separate water fountains/toilets, only get food from the back doors of restaurants, and segregated schools used to be. Separate and NOT equal.

    There are situations that Noodletoy's and Partner's Will and DNR do not cover.
    I hope that this thread makes them consider the additional documents that they may need in an emergency situation such as severe injury when dealing with hospital regulations.

    The other issue is that "marriage" in America is NOT primarily a matter of church/religion.
    "Marriage" in the US is primarily a LEGAL contract document that gives both parties benefits, rights, and responsibilities.
    The religious portion of thing is up to the people entering into the contract.
    Choosing to have a church wedding has nothing to do with the LEGAL portion.
    People can be legally married with no religious ceremony.
    And people can be married in religious ceremony with NO legal document involved.

    This is why I believe that EVERY government sanctioned LEGAL 'marriage' should be called what it actually is, a Legal Union, and that Marriage Certificates should be a separate thing awarded by individual churches according to their own standards to be sought if that is what the couple wishes.

    And no... he isn't breaking the law, but he is promoting and supporting monetarily laws that are 100% discriminatory, just like people did against blacks not so long ago. Just because it's legal for him to do it doesn't exactly make it okay IMO.
    Last edited by cori93437; 08-04-2012 at 07:40 PM.
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  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neckhammer View Post
    Well she can not be legally recognized as married, but she could go the ceremony with a willing minister couldn't she? Just wondering. Or does the church follow state laws? And if they do follow state laws seems kinda weird they would have a lesbian minister in that state....many ministers seem to get assignment don't they? I'll admit I'm neither gay nor very religious so I don't know much about the rules here.
    Okay, yes, it seems you really don't know much about it, which I guess is common. In our state, your marriage can be recognized by the state, if you are heterosexual, either by a religious official or a government official, licensed to perform marriage ceremonies, in the courthouse. While, as a homosexual, you can be married in the church, you can't be recognized as married by the state. as others have pointed out, being recognized as married by the government offers you and your spouse benefits, such as retirement/pension, health coverage, property rights, and access to your partner in medical emergencies, as well as critical healthcare decisions. Our minister, while legally able to grant us these marriage benefits, is not legally able to do this with her partner, in this state.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by patski View Post
    What?

    Are you saying only religious people get married?

    Logic fail.

    Cathy really ought to point the finger at FAILED marriages, you know, the ones that end in divorce every year. What is the stat now...over 60%? But oh no, point the finger at TEH GAYZ. Yeah, cuz we're doing such an amazeballs job at ruining the 'sanctity of marriage'.
    LOL...no the Logic Fail is not in me. Its in the combination or not of your insistence of what the word marriage means. On a governmental level it is simply a contract that entitles you the spouse certain rights (this could be accomplished without being married IMO if you are willing to do it). On a religious level its your friends and minister (or whatever authority you determine) gathering to attest to your union....NOTHING here about your legal rights.

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neckhammer View Post
    Guess I don't understand the debate. Gay people are not being stopped from doing shit, just not recognized as being married. Isn't marriage a religious thing? I understand the legal implications, but like noodle pointed out and I'm sure many realize....there are ways to take care of that right?

    Really it doesn't matter to me, but there are plenty of injustices in regards to personal freedoms in this country that we all turn a blind eye to. We could argue all of them, but we would just end up in another pointless thread filled with debate and no resolution.

    The guy is for traditional families. So what. A lot of people are. Are gay people lobbying to get marriage passed? Is he breaking the law by doing the opposite?
    I got married in a courtroom by a judge. We got legally married because of legal reasons. It simplifies our living together for hopefully the rest of our lives. Plus, I like the fact I am legally married. It doesn't need to make sense to *you*.

    Also, other religions and cultures besides Christian/Jewish faiths have marriages. There are also Christian couples who are gay.This country is home to people from all sorts of backgrounds and beliefs. Religious does not equal being Christian.

    It doesn't matter what kind of opinion you have, saying a couple cannot get married because of their sexual orientation is discrimination. Live by your own beliefs and let others live by theirs.
    Last edited by GuineaPigQueen; 08-04-2012 at 07:41 PM.

  10. #160
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    I didn't get married by a 'minister' of any church, either. I was married by an 'officiant' who is not affiliated with any church.

    Marriage is not a religious institution. If some people think it is, because THEIR minister is from xyz church, then so be it.
    A Post-Primal PrimalPat

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