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Thread: Iodine: a discussion, and perhaps a civilized debate page 85

  1. #841
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    [QUOTE=JamesS;937689][QUOTE=Paysan;937645][QUOTE=JamesS;937406] ....



    Potassium iodide is given during nuclear accidents to prevent the uptake of radioactive iodine by the thyroid, not bromine. [/]

    The point was, when the iodine receptors are full, there's no place for the radioactive iodine to lodge and do its dirty work.




    I doubt that he printed two versions of the book. regardless, the thyroid holds on pretty tight to some iodine so only a portion of the iodine can be displaced by iodine. But studies have also shown that replacement of iodine by bromine on some of the receptors does not alter thyroid function. Therefore, it would take a lot of bromine to displace a significant enough amount of iodine to be an issue. And this would be difficult to do for the reasons I brought up previously in my post about the bromine detox myth.
    In fact, I've seen 3 different versions of his handbook now. So quoting can be tricky. I would also like to point out that there are iodine receptors all over the body, that bromine is abundant in our environment, and there's more to the iodine question than simply the thyroid.
    From U of Michigan Health System QUOTE: What is the role of iodine in the body?

    Iodine is an essential element for thyroid function, necessary for the normal growth, development and functioning of the brain and body. It also influences a variety of metabolic processes in the body (converting food to energy, regulating growth and fertility, and maintaining body temperature). ENDQUOTE.

    I still am undecided that bromine is as harmless as you portray, or that excess iodine from Lugol's Soultion is as deadly. However, as it seems that only those with deadly diseases can handle megadoses, and even iodine docs are figuring iodine replete individuals need about 12 to 25 gm daily, I shall keep my intake to 12 mg or less daily and see what happens.

  2. #842
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    [QUOTE=JamesS;937697]First of all my previous statement was based on the book you were referring to earlier as evidence. But your Wiki quote along with the book you previously referenced as evidence still don't prove much. First of all as I have pointed out in the past the symptoms of bromism do not fit the symptoms of what people are reporting on the Curezone iodine boards other than the skin eruptions, which iodine also causes by inflaming the follicles. The other reported symptoms such as rapid heart rate and trouble breathing are symptoms of iodine poisoning (iodism), not bromism.

    I don't frequent Curezone due to the "enthusiasm" of some of the participants. My BS factor kicks in whenever anyone starts curing themselves with magical potions. Good sober reports on n=1 experiments will , however, gain my ear. Here are some facts about bromine poisoning from the CDC : QUOTE:
    Immediate signs and symptoms of exposure to bromine

    Breathing bromine gas could cause you to cough, have trouble breathing, get a headache, have irritation of your mucous membranes (inside your mouth, nose, etc.), be dizzy, or have watery eyes.
    Getting bromine liquid or gas on your skin could cause skin irritation and burns. Liquid bromine that touches your skin may first cause a cooling sensation that is closely followed by a burning feeling.
    Swallowing bromine-containing compounds (combinations of bromine with other chemicals) would cause different effects depending on the compound. Swallowing a large amount of bromine in a short period of time would be likely to cause symptoms such as nausea and vomiting (gastrointestinal symptoms).
    Showing these signs and symptoms does not necessarily mean that a person has been exposed to bromine.

    Long-term health effects of exposure to bromine

    Survivors of serious poisoning caused by inhaling (breathing in) bromine may have long-term lung problems.
    People who survive serious bromine poisoning may also have long-term effects from damage done by what is called systemic poisoning, for example, kidney or brain damage from low blood pressure. ENDQUOTE:



    [QUOTE]...
    unless there is a very high exposure or very long term exposure to high amounts of bromine to allow a significant build up in the tissues the half life of the bromide is going to be very short. The vast majority of people just are not going to be exposed to such high levels of bromine to begin with. ENDQUOTE"

    Just don't buy a new house, new carpets, fire-resistant bedding, or swim in a bromine sterilized pool. Good thing they took Bromo-Seltzer off the market as well.


    I would not discount breathing difficulties as being caused by iodism, after what the CDC state.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paysan View Post
    Thanks for your imput, Omni. I'm still unclear as to whether previous treatment for thyroid conditions predisposes SOME (but apparently not all) people to respond to excess iodine with hyper symptoms. But it seems that the point is moot - the thyroid simply shuts down till the excess iodine is disposed on. In the study with amiodarone above, the levels were and remained very high for weeks, something that doesn't happen with simple Lugol's solution in excess.
    The half life of iodine in the body is over 50 days:

    Biological Half life of Iodine in Normal and Athyroidic persons

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    [QUOTE=Paysan;938309][QUOTE=JamesS;937689][QUOTE=Paysan;937645]
    Quote Originally Posted by JamesS View Post
    ....

    "Potassium iodide is given during nuclear accidents to prevent the uptake of radioactive iodine by the thyroid, not bromine."

    The point was, when the iodine receptors are full, there's no place for the radioactive iodine to lodge and do its dirty work.

    Then why didn't you say iodine to begin with instead of bromine? Here is your quote again:

    "Iodine will fill any vacancies when enough is ingested, before they can be refilled by bromine exposure. In fact, using iodine to fill up any vacated receptors in a nuclear scenario is the whole purpose of dishing out "radiation" pills."


    Quote Originally Posted by Paysan View Post
    In fact, I've seen 3 different versions of his handbook now. So quoting can be tricky.
    With different book editions the new editions generally do not change wording of old chapters but rather add additional information by adding new chapters. So I doubt they ever mentioned increased bromine release due to increased iodine. Especially considering the fact that bromine is more reactive than iodine, not the other way around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paysan View Post
    I would also like to point out that there are iodine receptors all over the body, that bromine is abundant in our environment, and there's more to the iodine question than simply the thyroid.
    It is well known that there are iodine receptors throughout the body, so you are not offering anything new.

    Is bromine really as abundant as is being claimed though? Not really. That claim is rather misleading. Even though it is found in some products exposure for the vast majority of people is very limited. And you are still overlooking the fact that people are exposed to vastly larger amounts of fluoride and chloride that are more reactive than bromine and readily displace it as well as sodium that removes bromine that has an extremely short half life in the body to begin with.


    Quote Originally Posted by Paysan View Post
    From U of Michigan Health System QUOTE: What is the role of iodine in the body?

    Iodine is an essential element for thyroid function, necessary for the normal growth, development and functioning of the brain and body. It also influences a variety of metabolic processes in the body (converting food to energy, regulating growth and fertility, and maintaining body temperature). ENDQUOTE.
    And your point? Nobody ever claimed iodine was not essential. What as been in contention are the claims that poisonous levels are somehow beneficial. The only case where this is true is with hyperthyroidism, in which the very high levels start shutting down the thyroid. In cases though where the person has a normal thyroid the thyroid can go hypo, and a person with hypothyroidism can become even worse. I could pull up sites showing water is essential to the body. Does this mean you should drink 20 gallons a day if possible? Of course not. Just like iodine is essential in low amounts, but like water can be toxic in excessive doses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paysan View Post
    I still am undecided that bromine is as harmless as you portray, or that excess iodine from Lugol's Soultion is as deadly.
    Where did I ever say bromine is harmless or that Lugol's is deadly? You are making claims of things I never said, which is not helping your case at all.

  5. #845
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    [QUOTE=Paysan;938325]
    Quote Originally Posted by JamesS View Post
    First of all my previous statement was based on the book you were referring to earlier as evidence. But your Wiki quote along with the book you previously referenced as evidence still don't prove much. First of all as I have pointed out in the past the symptoms of bromism do not fit the symptoms of what people are reporting on the Curezone iodine boards other than the skin eruptions, which iodine also causes by inflaming the follicles. The other reported symptoms such as rapid heart rate and trouble breathing are symptoms of iodine poisoning (iodism), not bromism.

    I don't frequent Curezone due to the "enthusiasm" of some of the participants. My BS factor kicks in whenever anyone starts curing themselves with magical potions. Good sober reports on n=1 experiments will , however, gain my ear. Here are some facts about bromine poisoning from the CDC : QUOTE:
    Immediate signs and symptoms of exposure to bromine

    Breathing bromine gas could cause you to cough, have trouble breathing, get a headache, have irritation of your mucous membranes (inside your mouth, nose, etc.), be dizzy, or have watery eyes.
    Getting bromine liquid or gas on your skin could cause skin irritation and burns. Liquid bromine that touches your skin may first cause a cooling sensation that is closely followed by a burning feeling.
    Swallowing bromine-containing compounds (combinations of bromine with other chemicals) would cause different effects depending on the compound. Swallowing a large amount of bromine in a short period of time would be likely to cause symptoms such as nausea and vomiting (gastrointestinal symptoms).
    Showing these signs and symptoms does not necessarily mean that a person has been exposed to bromine.

    Long-term health effects of exposure to bromine

    Survivors of serious poisoning caused by inhaling (breathing in) bromine may have long-term lung problems.
    People who survive serious bromine poisoning may also have long-term effects from damage done by what is called systemic poisoning, for example, kidney or brain damage from low blood pressure. ENDQUOTE:
    Thanks for providing the evidence to back what I have been saying all along. Since the odds of inhaling bromine (Br) gas is as unlikely as winning the lottery the symptoms that we would expect with any significant exposure from bromine compounds, which are generally ingested. An exception would be bromine based inhalers. And there is no mention of the symptoms of the so-called "bromine detox" that is actually iodine poisoning symptoms.

    [QUOTE=Paysan;938325]
    ...
    unless there is a very high exposure or very long term exposure to high amounts of bromine to allow a significant build up in the tissues the half life of the bromide is going to be very short. The vast majority of people just are not going to be exposed to such high levels of bromine to begin with. ENDQUOTE"

    Just don't buy a new house, new carpets, fire-resistant bedding, or swim in a bromine sterilized pool. Good thing they took Bromo-Seltzer off the market as well.
    You are assuming that a lot of these things will have bromine that we can be exposed to and that we will be exposed in significant amounts. For example, the fire retardants most commonly used in carpeting are boric acid and boric anhydride. Fire retardants for bedding are not always bromine based either, and in fact bromine based fire retardants for bedding have been on a phase out for years. As for pools, pools generally use chlorine. Bromine is sometimes used in spas. Which brings up yet another question. Why don't people using brominated spas develop the symptoms of bromism and the so-called "bromine detox?


    Quote Originally Posted by Paysan View Post
    I would not discount breathing difficulties as being caused by iodism, after what the CDC state.
    Yes, iodism (iodine poisoning) can cause breathing difficulty. This was my earlier point about the symptoms that were being attributed to the so-called "bromine detox" were actually from the iodine poisoning. But the people who are peddling the iodine keep blaming the problem on "bromine detox" to sell even more iodine rather than admitting that the people are actually poisoning themselves with way too much iodine.

  6. #846
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    So, after sorting out all of this malarkey of going back and forth ten thousand times, what would be an appropriate amount of Iodine to take. I believe 150mcg is way too little, however I'm not going to go all out and start taking 20-30 mg per day. I don't have the luxury of eating kelp a few times per week, so for supplement purposes what are we looking at in terms of amounts? I realize people will differ, but I'm looking for the 'Paleo middle-ground' of this Iodine discussion. As in I don't want to take salt detoxes and add five other supplements to the list I already take simply because I may be 'detoxing' from too much Iodine or bad chemicals, or whatever the F it is.

    And on a side note, it's really disappointing that what started out as a second attempt on a very intriguing, yet divisive topic, has once again been turned into mud throwing and bad mouthing of people we don't even personally know. A forum like this should be about helping each other benefit from mutual information and if people have different beliefs, that is fine, let us read what you've got to say, followed up by sources and let the individual user (us) make the choice. It's really disconcerting how the first iodine thread was dealt with and how this one is seemingly following the same path.
    Last edited by afsjesse; 08-26-2012 at 09:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by afsjesse View Post
    So, after sorting out all of this malarkey of going back and forth ten thousand times, what would be an appropriate amount of Iodine to take. I believe 150mcg is way too little, however I'm not going to go all out and start taking 20-30 mg per day. I don't have the luxury of eating kelp a few times per week, so for supplement purposes what are we looking at in terms of amounts? I realize people will differ, but I'm looking for the 'Paleo middle-ground' of this Iodine discussion. As in I don't want to take salt detoxes and add five other supplements to the list I already take simply because I may be 'detoxing' from too much Iodine or bad chemicals, or whatever the F it is.

    And on a side note, it's really disappointing that what started out as a second attempt on a very intriguing, yet divisive topic, has once again been turned into mud throwing and bad mouthing of people we don't even personally know. A forum like this should be about helping each other benefit from mutual information and if people have different beliefs, that is fine, let us read what you've got to say, followed up by sources and let the individual user (us) make the choice. It's really disconcerting how the first iodine thread was dealt with and how this one is seemingly following the same path.
    You could try a kelp supplement. Nature's Way has a kelp supplement that I've gotten at Drugstore.com that has 400 mcg of iodine in one tablet. It's $7.00 for 180 tablets. If you have a Vitamin Cottage or Whole Foods near you or some other natural grocer, then they very likely would have them as well. I don't take them now but in the past when I took them I took two tablets a day (when I remembered to take them).

  8. #848
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    as for what an appropriate amount to take is, it should be evident by now that it's different for everyone
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    Quote Originally Posted by afsjesse View Post
    So, after sorting out all of this malarkey of going back and forth ten thousand times, what would be an appropriate amount of Iodine to take. I believe 150mcg is way too little, however I'm not going to go all out and start taking 20-30 mg per day. I don't have the luxury of eating kelp a few times per week, so for supplement purposes what are we looking at in terms of amounts? I realize people will differ, but I'm looking for the 'Paleo middle-ground' of this Iodine discussion. As in I don't want to take salt detoxes and add five other supplements to the list I already take simply because I may be 'detoxing' from too much Iodine or bad chemicals, or whatever the F it is.

    And on a side note, it's really disappointing that what started out as a second attempt on a very intriguing, yet divisive topic, has once again been turned into mud throwing and bad mouthing of people we don't even personally know. A forum like this should be about helping each other benefit from mutual information and if people have different beliefs, that is fine, let us read what you've got to say, followed up by sources and let the individual user (us) make the choice. It's really disconcerting how the first iodine thread was dealt with and how this one is seemingly following the same path.
    My scalp broke out at under 500 mcg (can't remember the dose now) of kelp tablets, it wasn't horrendous and probably has to do with the bromides in cheap hair coloring. So everyone will be different. It is very important that you have sufficient selenium (200 mcg.) when you start taking in iodine.

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    Why don't people using brominated spas develop the symptoms of bromism and the so-called "bromine detox?
    Perhaps they need to start taking in iodine for the body to start detoxing the bromine.
    Last edited by Ferti; 08-27-2012 at 07:31 AM. Reason: quote longer than necessary

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