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Thread: Iodine: a discussion, and perhaps a civilized debate page 84

  1. #831
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesS View Post
    Do you have a link to this book showing this actual book. I found it under Googlebooks and ran a search for bromine and I saw two pages where the word bromine came up. Pages 1235 and 1237. Both pages were only discussing the exchange between bromine and chlorine. Nothing about excretion.
    Pg 1845 84.4.3.
    Handbook of Pesticide Toxicology - Robert Irving Krieger - Google Books.

    Sorry I haven't any more info at present than that.
    ETA: See additional info in reply to Radialhead
    Last edited by Paysan; 08-24-2012 at 01:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radialhead View Post
    You probably had it in preview mode which only shows a few pages. The last paragraph in 84.4.3. Handbook of Pesticide Toxicology - Robert Irving Krieger - Google Books
    The fact the book is listed as a 2-volume set on Amazon for $720 will most likely bring this avenue screeching to a halt. But it was fun while it lasted. I didn't just google bromine, but bromine versus iodine or something similar. Thanks for helping out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radialhead View Post
    You probably had it in preview mode which only shows a few pages. The last paragraph in 84.4.3. Handbook of Pesticide Toxicology - Robert Irving Krieger - Google Books
    I tried your link. It says "Pages 1846 to 1848 are not shown in this preview". Therefore the page you said this was on, page 1846, is not available in the link.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesS View Post
    I tried your link. It says "Pages 1846 to 1848 are not shown in this preview". Therefore the page you said this was on, page 1846, is not available in the link.
    I didn't say it was on page 1846, I said it was the "last paragraph in 84.4.3" which is on that link. Paysan mentioned page 1846 but I presume that's in a different edition. Either way, if you want page 1846, just change the page number in the URL. E.g. Handbook of Pesticide Toxicology - Robert Irving Krieger - Google Books

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radialhead View Post
    I didn't say it was on page 1846, I said it was the "last paragraph in 84.4.3" which is on that link. Paysan mentioned page 1846 but I presume that's in a different edition. Either way, if you want page 1846, just change the page number in the URL. E.g. Handbook of Pesticide Toxicology - Robert Irving Krieger - Google Books
    I see quite a but on that section that is being overlooked. Such as the fact that they say oral exposure from food is insignificant and the only real risk would be from living near farms where large quantities would be inhaled.

    It also states that these are rat studies, not human studies. Still much of the methyl bromide is rapidly excreted by exhalation, with smaller amounts being excreted in urine and feces. They found 55% of the injected methyl bromide was eliminated within 2.5 days.

    But nowhere does it mention increased elimination of the bromide ion by iodine as was being claimed on posts 792 and 793:

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoss2626 View Post
    Yes that is the question that I also had. I am not dismissing it entirely however, as I saw a link to a study that measured bromine excretion in the urine. The amount of bromine went up with Iodine supplementation. So the why isn't necessary if the what is documented. I am too lazy to find the study though...
    Quote Originally Posted by Paysan View Post
    This one? Handbook of Pesticide Toxicology by Kreiger. Page 1846 discusses that intracellular bromine is excreted very slowly and lasted about 5 days with no further intake. The kidneys and liver held the highest concentrations, the blood the lowest. My slowly evolving opinion is that because iodine is excreted relatively quickly, it takes a lot of iodine over that 5 days to oust the more persistent bromine. IOW, once it settles in your tissues, bromine is a star boarder and can be evicted only with difficulty.
    The studies in the book do not show anything about iodine, and they also show a very rapid excretion of the high amount of injected bromide. Not slowly or with difficulty as Paysan is claiming.

    In fact, at one point they say "Methyl bromide was rapidly eliminated from rat tissue following the cessation of exposure, with a half life of 30 minutes in the early postexposure period. At 48 hours postexposure, methyl bromide was not detected in any tissue examined."

    Later they say as to their inhalation exposure test "No bromide ion was detected in any tissue one week after exposure to concentrations up to 2.72mg/l air. Over 95% of the bromide ion in exposed mice was eliminated within 2.5 days."

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    [QUOTE=JamesS;937406] ....

    It also states that these are rat studies, not human studies. Still much of the methyl bromide is rapidly excreted by exhalation, with smaller amounts being excreted in urine and feces. They found 55% of the injected methyl bromide was eliminated within 2.5 days. [/]

    Which means that the rats retained 45% for a longer period. But as you say, rats aren't people. (Hint: they're usually healthier and fed better.)

    [QUOTE] But nowhere does it mention increased elimination of the bromide ion by iodine as was being claimed on posts 792 and 793: [/]

    Iodine will fill any vacancies when enough is ingested, before they can be refilled by bromine exposure. In fact, using iodine to fill up any vacated receptors in a nuclear scenario is the whole purpose of dishing out "radiation" pills.

    The studies in the book do not show anything about iodine, and they also show a very rapid excretion of the high amount of injected bromide. Not slowly or with difficulty as Paysan is claiming.

    In fact, at one point they say "Methyl bromide was rapidly eliminated from rat tissue following the cessation of exposure, with a half life of 30 minutes in the early postexposure period. At 48 hours postexposure, methyl bromide was not detected in any tissue examined."

    Later they say as to their inhalation exposure test "No bromide ion was detected in any tissue one week after exposure to concentrations up to 2.72mg/l air. Over 95% of the bromide ion in exposed mice was eliminated within 2.5 days."
    Perhaps we have been examining 2 different versions of Kreiger's Handbook, because the conclusions I came to (opinions) were based directly on the quotes I mentioned previously. Now I am presented with differing handbooks and volume years, which is puzzling. I'll try again.

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    So, while continuing my research in Wiki, I came across the following nuggets:
    Toxicity. Long-term use of potassium bromide (or any bromide salt) can lead to bromism. This state of central nervous system depression causes the moderate toxicity of bromide in multi-gram doses for humans and other mammals. The very long half-life of bromide ion in the body (~12 days) also contributes to toxicity from bromide build-up in body fluids. Bromide ingestion may also cause a skin eruption resembling acne. Endquote

    12 days, not 12 hours. And an acnelike skin eruption (which I think I developed) can be due to bromism. Interesting what you find while looking for other things, James.

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    [QUOTE=Paysan;937645][QUOTE=JamesS;937406] ....

    It also states that these are rat studies, not human studies. Still much of the methyl bromide is rapidly excreted by exhalation, with smaller amounts being excreted in urine and feces. They found 55% of the injected methyl bromide was eliminated within 2.5 days. [/]

    Which means that the rats retained 45% for a longer period. But as you say, rats aren't people. (Hint: they're usually healthier and fed better.)

    But nowhere does it mention increased elimination of the bromide ion by iodine as was being claimed on posts 792 and 793: [/]

    Iodine will fill any vacancies when enough is ingested, before they can be refilled by bromine exposure. In fact, using iodine to fill up any vacated receptors in a nuclear scenario is the whole purpose of dishing out "radiation" pills.

    Potassium iodide is given during nuclear accidents to prevent the uptake of radioactive iodine by the thyroid, not bromine.



    [QUOTE=Paysan;937645]
    Quote Originally Posted by JamesS View Post
    Perhaps we have been examining 2 different versions of Kreiger's Handbook, because the conclusions I came to (opinions) were based directly on the quotes I mentioned previously. Now I am presented with differing handbooks and volume years, which is puzzling. I'll try again.
    I doubt that he printed two versions of the book. regardless, the thyroid holds on pretty tight to some iodine so only a portion of the iodine can be displaced by iodine. But studies have also shown that replacement of iodine by bromine on some of the receptors does not alter thyroid function. Therefore, it would take a lot of bromine to displace a significant enough amount of iodine to be an issue. And this would be difficult to do for the reasons I brought up previously in my post about the bromine detox myth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paysan View Post
    So, while continuing my research in Wiki, I came across the following nuggets:
    Toxicity. Long-term use of potassium bromide (or any bromide salt) can lead to bromism. This state of central nervous system depression causes the moderate toxicity of bromide in multi-gram doses for humans and other mammals. The very long half-life of bromide ion in the body (~12 days) also contributes to toxicity from bromide build-up in body fluids. Bromide ingestion may also cause a skin eruption resembling acne. Endquote

    12 days, not 12 hours. And an acnelike skin eruption (which I think I developed) can be due to bromism. Interesting what you find while looking for other things, James.
    First of all my previous statement was based on the book you were referring to earlier as evidence. But your Wiki quote along with the book you previously referenced as evidence still don't prove much. First of all as I have pointed out in the past the symptoms of bromism do not fit the symptoms of what people are reporting on the Curezone iodine boards other than the skin eruptions, which iodine also causes by inflaming the follicles. The other reported symptoms such as rapid heart rate and trouble breathing are symptoms of iodine poisoning (iodism), not bromism.

    If you read back through the book you referenced earlier you will also find that the half life of bromide excretion increases with dose exposure, which your Wiki link also makes reference to: "This state of central nervous system depression causes the moderate toxicity of bromide in multi-gram doses for humans and other mammals. The very long half-life of bromide ion in the body (~12 days) also contributes to toxicity from bromide build-up in body fluids.". Therefore, unless there is a very high exposure or very long term exposure to high amounts of bromine to allow a significant build up in the tissues the half life of the bromide is going to be very short. The vast majority of people just are not going to be exposed to such high levels of bromine to begin with.

    In addition, we still have to keep in mind how much fluoride and chloride as well as sodium and likely potassium that we are exposed to on a daily basis that further increase the rate of bromine elimination. Factors that were not taken in to account in the elimination studies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omni View Post
    I'm not sure that it is actually a protective design feature of the thyroid, excess Iodine (potassium Iodide) can be used to block thyroid function in cases of Hyperthyroid conditions, and was the treatment before drugs became available, but getting dosage right can be a bit tricky, but as I understand it if excessive high levels are maintained then effectively one can become Hypothyroid with minimal thyroid function even though there is more than enough iodine present.
    So I would see it as an effect more than a protective feature, the effect being excess iodine blocks up the thyroid hormone production line, which can not resume normally until Iodine levels fall.
    Thanks for your imput, Omni. I'm still unclear as to whether previous treatment for thyroid conditions predisposes SOME (but apparently not all) people to respond to excess iodine with hyper symptoms. But it seems that the point is moot - the thyroid simply shuts down till the excess iodine is disposed on. In the study with amiodarone above, the levels were and remained very high for weeks, something that doesn't happen with simple Lugol's solution in excess.

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