Iodine: a discussion, and perhaps a civilized debate page 41

[Piscator]

JamesS - I appreciate your input thus far. I missed the previous iodine thread, so am curious about your take on the testimonials presented by Grizz.
Grizz - thanks for your input as well. I found Brownstein's info before I found PB, however, with the input from JamesS, am seriously re-considering my forays into iodine supplementation. I am originally from the midwest, and remember lots of older folks with scars from goiter surgery, many of them older family members.

[Grizz]

Piscator,

JamesS is my hero, also. 3 cheers for JamesS.

As we all know, iodine is an extremely controversial subject. It has always been my advice to pick a doctor's protocol to follow.

There are 3 doctors that I can relate to.
* Dr. Kruse who recommends large amounts of seafoods (equivalent to Japanese consumption of 12mg daily)

* Dr. Davis who recommends 1/2mg of seaweed tablets
Thyroid Tune-up Checklist | Wheat Belly Blog
An Iodine Primer | Wheat Belly Blog

* Dr. Brownstein, who I am now following. Dr. Brownstein is also followed by the Yahoo Iodine Group, 6,000+ members, the BreastCancerChoices Group, 640 members, and the Curezone Iodine Group for the last 5 years.
Download this file for the Brownstein Protocol:


If there is a BETTER doctor's protocol to follow, I am interested in the details.

Since I am promoting iodine nationwide, I must have a doctors protocol to promote. Individuals ideas are not acceptable. As far as I know, the Dr. Brownstein Protocol is the most followed, the most time tested and proven. I am very comfortable with that history.

So you pick your doctor to follow as best you can. Any method that detoxes your body and supplies enough iodine with required supplements to eliminate deficiency disease is a good method.

grizz

[Paysan]

JamesS - I appreciate your input thus far. I missed the previous iodine thread, so am curious about your take on the testimonials presented by Grizz.
Grizz - thanks for your input as well. I found Brownstein's info before I found PB, however, with the input from JamesS, am seriously re-considering my forays into iodine supplementation. I am originally from the midwest, and remember lots of older folks with scars from goiter surgery, many of them older family members.

My granddaughter's MinL has had a thyroidectomy. To my astonishment, I found she knew about 15 others locally who had the same! Small wonder my grdaughter takes one drop of Lugol's 2% a day in water - even with her fragile health. I backed off 8 drops daily when I broke out in a rash that I considered bromaderma. Since then I've developed a bowel infection and my tongue started to swell again. 8 drops is not a huge amount; so I shall resume 4 drops again and see what happens. It seems the results of bromine toxicity are similar to iodism, so-called. I have no known thyroid issues, although I consider myself on the hypo side and I doubt if this amount will cause my thyroid to conk out. If it does, then I am severely iodine deficient.;-)
PS. Nor does it help that our rural hamlet is under a Boil Water Advisory due to the local water source being contaminated by E. Coli. I just feel safer with iodine than w/o.

[JamesS]

I am eating 5-6 eggs for breakfast fried in coconut oil or butter instead of toast with jam almost every day. When I add bacon I fry eggs in the bacon fat. I don't always eat bacon for breakfast because of nitrates. Sometimes I put the fried eggs on top of spinach or other greens.
Lunches now days are either salad with meat on top (steak strips or grilled chicken) or fried fish in butter (no batter).
Dinner, fried cow's liver with sweet potatoes or steak or chicken with LOTS of veggies fried in butter.
I am avoiding grains and legumes as much as possible, but sometimes when I am out I might have some beans.
I have also been drinking bullet proof coffee sometimes (coffee with a teaspoon of butter).
That's roughly what I eat. Before that I was not eating as much fat but after reading here for several months I learned that we need lots of fat so I increased that as well as coconut oil being so beneficial to us.

Yes, we need fats, but there are good fats and bad fats. So simply loading up on fats in not necessarily a good idea. They can provide a lot of calories, but they are also the most efficient dietary fuel for the body. I used to race running and triathlons and do cross country bicycling. One of the things I had learned back then was oil loading for races. You don't simply just go drinking a lot of oil without building up to it. Otherwise it can cause diarrhea. But an old racer's trick is to start out with a spoon full of oil then work up to a tablespoon and finally work up to a cup of oil right before a race. Since oil is a more efficient fuel that either proteins or carbohydrates it can help with energy and endurance. If the person is more sedentary though the oil can be a major calorie load.

Also keep in mind that some fat sources are high in the pro-inflammatory omega 6 fatty acid arachidonic acid.

Your diet does contain quite a bit of cholesterol and very little in the way of binders. But the main thing I see I would avoid is the liver. Liver is 6 times higher in cholesterol than beef, but the bigger issue with liver is what else is in it. When I was a little kid we had a really neat family doctor. He was more old school and did not believe in medications unless absolutely unnecessary. I remember something really interesting he mentioned about liver. He said he would not touch liver because it is the filter for the body's toxins. And eating liver means ingesting those toxins. Made a lot of sense to me. The more we put in to the body that the liver has to process the more stress we put on the liver.

[Sceptic]

It is not the sodium that displaces halogens, it is the chloride halogen in the salt. But considering how much salt the average person consumes and the amount of fluoride so many of us are exposed to it would be very unlike that there would be any significant amount of bromine in the body unless spending a lot of time in brominated spas, drinking a lot of Mountain Dew or taking significant amounts of bromine based medications.

Radialhead posted a link to a rodent study on bromide levels which indicates that the amount of sodium is more important for detoxing bromides.

[JamesS]

* Iodine Kills Cancer Cells via Apoptosis

There really is no reason to doubt the research, but I think what people get upset with is that 1. This is being misconstrued as a cure for cancer. 2. That as with fibrocystic breast disease it is being implied that these conditions result from an iodine deficiency, which is not the case.

For example, I can name numerous herbs that have been shown to induce apoptosis in cancer cells. Does this mean cancer is a deficiency of any of these herbs? Of course not.

And for fibrocystic breast disease again numerous herbs can correct this condition. Not because they contain iodine, but because they contain phytoestrogens that like iodine are estrogen antagonists. Or they support liver function to help break down excess estrogen and feed the flora allowing them to break down estrogen metabolites.

And how do the iodine supporters explain the fact that eliminating caffeine helps with fibrocystic breast disease since it does not raise iodine levels?

Iodine may be one tool to help in the treatment of cancer, but this does not make it a cure on its own. And there are definite risks to the excessive levels being recommend by some individuals.

[B]To learn more about the Dr. Brownstein Iodine Protocol go to the Curezone Iodine Group. There are many experts available on this subject at this site:
Iodine Supplementation Support Forum by VWT Team, Page 267, Vulcanel, Wombat & Trapper/kcmo:

They are not even close to being experts. They promote people taking poisonous levels of iodine. Then when people complain of symptoms of iodine poisoning they try to blame the symptoms on the mythical "bromine detox" ignoring the facts that iodine can cause acne by inflaming the follicles and that many of the symptoms being reported are the opposite of bromine poisoning. They are symptoms of iodine poisoning (iodism) though. Then they tell people to do "salt flushes", which contains what they consider the evil halogen chloride that pushes out the poisonous levels of iodine. Then they tell people to load up on more toxic levels of iodine but to keep doing the salt flushes, which keeps pushing out much of the iodine. This would be akin to a drug addict overdosing themselves on a narcotic then taking naloxone to treat the overdose so they can take an overdose of narcotic again so they can take more naloxone.... Why don't they just tell people to take reasonable and safe levels of iodine to begin with instead of poisoning the body, flushing out the poison, then take more toxic levels of iodine....?
The only people they are benefiting are themselves by their iodine sales.

And if they are "experts" then why are they unaware of how essential chloride is to our survival and function? Instead they promote it as a toxic halogen and tell people to load up on chloride rich salt to push out the bromide when in fact it is helping by pushing out the toxic levels of iodine.

Considering how many cases of iodism I have seen reported on that board that were dismissed as "bromine detox", the amount they hype bromine exposure, the fact that they are telling people to take toxic levels of iodine and fail to differentiate between iodine and iodide, fail to warn people of the dangers of excess iodine in Hashimoto's and all the bad advice they give due to their lack of understanding of the human body I would not consider them experts in anything other than how to hype up information to boost sales.

[JamesS]

JamesS - I appreciate your input thus far. I missed the previous iodine thread, so am curious about your take on the testimonials presented by Grizz.
Grizz - thanks for your input as well. I found Brownstein's info before I found PB, however, with the input from JamesS, am seriously re-considering my forays into iodine supplementation. I am originally from the midwest, and remember lots of older folks with scars from goiter surgery, many of them older family members.

I have never put much faith in testimonials to begin with unless I know the person and know more about their history.

The first problem with these "testimonials" is that there is no way to identify the person. Do these people even exist? Are they simply the iodine peddlers who made up new accounts to post these stories to push their sales? There is no way to contact these people to see who they really are and what the real story is.

Then there is the problem of a lack of history. If someone claims they were cured by some means of their cancer then how do we know how they cured their cancer for sure? Some people for example claim to have bee cured by chemotherapy. If we look in to the history of these people though they often made serious changes in diet, started taking supplements and often combined other treatments such a holistic medicine. Of course the chemotherapy will get the credit even though it may have had little to nothing to do with the cancer remission or cure. Even placebo effect can be a major factor, but does not prove the effectiveness of a substance.

This is why I prefer research to testimonials. Now, there is some research showing the potential of iodine for conditions such as fibrocystic breast disease because iodine is a estrogen antagonist. Does this mean that iodine is the only thing that deals with excess estrogen? No. Does this mean this is the safest way to deal with excess estrogen? No. Does this mean that fibrocystic breast disease is caused by an iodine deficiency as some have claimed? No. Does this mean that iodine is merely masking the symptoms rather than addressing the actual cause like so many other pharmaceutical drugs? Definitely!

I also have a problem with some of the testimonials I have seen on the iodine boards where it is claimed that the fibroids disappeared overnight. I have a real hard time believing that fibroids could be eliminated so quickly,which is another reason I question who is really writing these testimonials. If I could contact these people directly and get more details I would probably have more trust in them.

And I still prefer to address the cause of problems rather than mask them. In the case of fibroids the body is either producing too much estrogen, being exposed to too much estrogen or the body is not breaking down estrogens and estrogen metabolites properly. Iodine can antagonize the excess estrogen but does not stop the reasons for the excess estrogen.

If people simply want to antagonize estrogen there are safer ways. The best way is through the consumption of more plant materials. All plants we consume contain phytoestrogens that lock up estrogen receptors blocking the actions of stronger estrogens. All without the toxicity of excess iodine.

I should also add that as far as goiters go I mentioned before that hypothyroidism has numerous causes. Not all involve low iodine or iodine displacement.

Also keep in mind that iodine poisoning can also cause goiter.

But iodine intake deficiencies are not as common as they use to be. High amounts of iodine can be found in dairy for example, and can also be derived from other sources such as beef. Then there is iodized salt, a higher popularity in sea salt use and iodine in supplements as a few sources.

[Quarry]

Good point re testimonials, and also about people diagnosed cancer likely changing many lifestyle factors, not just Iodine.

[JamesS]

Piscator,

JamesS is my hero, also. 3 cheers for JamesS.

As we all know, iodine is an extremely controversial subject. It has always been my advice to pick a doctor's protocol to follow.

There are 3 doctors that I can relate to.
* Dr. Kruse who recommends large amounts of seafoods (equivalent to Japanese consumption of 12mg daily)

At least that is nowhere near the poisonous levels of 100-150mg or more of iodine being promoted on the Curezone iodine board.

We also have to keep in mind that seafoods, including seaweeds are also high in iodine antagonists so the full amount of iodine is not going to be utilized.

* Dr. Davis who recommends 1/2mg of seaweed tablets
Thyroid Tune-up Checklist | Wheat Belly Blog
An Iodine Primer | Wheat Belly Blog

Seaweeds are the best choice for iodine in my opinion. It not only supplies the small amounts of iodine the body needs, but also contains the accessory nutrients needed by the thyroid and its supporting glands. And since fibrocystic breast disease keeps coming up, seaweeds are also a great source of estrogen antagonizing phytoestrogens.

So you pick your doctor to follow as best you can. Any method that detoxes your body and supplies enough iodine with required supplements to eliminate deficiency disease is a good method.

grizz

There is the gist of the problem. What is "sufficient iodine"? There are people such as myself that do not supplement iodine and are perfectly healthy. Then there are those who supplement small amounts of iodine and say they feel better. And then we have those following the advice of taking 100-150mg or more of iodine daily that are reporting symptoms of iodine poisoning that are incorrectly being told they are detoxing bromine. Clearly there is a line between safe and toxic, but the dangers of toxicity are being ignored by too many. Iodine is essential to the body, but it is not required in large amounts. People need to do some research on this and use some common sense.

[JamesS]

I backed off 8 drops daily when I broke out in a rash that I considered bromaderma. Since then I've developed a bowel infection and my tongue started to swell again. 8 drops is not a huge amount; so I shall resume 4 drops again and see what happens. It seems the results of bromine toxicity are similar to iodism, so-called.

The only similar effects I am aware of is the acne-like rashes.

Other than that a lot of the side effects of iodism that are being incorrectly blamed on bromism do not fit the symptoms of bromine toxicity. For example, I have seen people claiming that a racing heart after taking iodine was from bromism. Problem is that bromine does not stimulate the system like iodine. Bromine is a sedative, which is why bromine has a history of being used as a sleep aid and anticonvulsant.