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Thread: Iodine: a discussion, and perhaps a civilized debate page 33

  1. #321
    chahaya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesS View Post

    As far as fibroids, yes they are definitely influenced by estrogen levels. And yes, it is the iodine blocking effects of iodine that allow iodine to help with their reduction. But I have seen some people expand this claim in to this meaning that iodine deficiency is also the cause of fibroids. Just because iodine can help with fibroids this does not mean an iodine deficiency is the cause of the fibroids. This would be like saying just because chemotherapy can help with some cancers that cancer therefore is caused by a lack of chemotherapy.

    To address fibroids my first suggestion would be to utilize digestive bitters. These are simply bitter tasting herbs, and yes they do have to come in to contact with the tongue to work. When the bitter receptors on the tongue are stimulated this in turn stimulates the vagus nerve. The stimulation of the vagus nerve in turn increases stomach acid, bile secretions and pancreatic enzyme release, which is why they are called digestive bitters. Bitters also increase liver function, and one role of the liver is to break down excess estrogen in the system. This also reduces cholesterol, which is the precursor for hormones. And it is also great for reducing the risk of gallstones, which women are more prone to due to the higher levels of estrogen and progesterone. Anyway, you can buy bitters at any health food store or a pinch of any bitter herb like gentian, or any bitter tasting food like bitter melon will work. If you get bitters at a health food store ignore the directions. They usually recommend a teaspoon of bitters, but many have herbs in them that I would not recommend at that dose such as anthraquinone stimulant laxative and berberine herbs. I recommend a half dropper full on the tongue before meals. Start out with once a day and slowly work up to three times a day. And drink plenty of water throughout the day since stimulation of the vagus nerve will have a strong "cleansing" effect on the body.

    Bitters also help to reduce body fat, which is also a source of estrogen for the body.

    My next suggestion would be either increasing your B vitamin intake through food or a B50 complex. Certain B vitamins are required for the process of methylation needed by the liver to break down the excess estrogens. Now the catch. Many people are low on stomach acid as acid levels decline with age. If they are taking antacids, acid blockers (proton pump inhibitors) or alkalinizers such as alkaline waters this can further reduce stomach acid. And if low on stomach acid you will not be able to absorb the B vitamins needed for methylation since these B vitamins are acid dependent for absorption. If you do have low stomach acid then I recommend the beet leaf extract trimethylglycine (TMG), which is a great and safe methyl donor.

    Something else that can help are cultured foods and fibers to help build up the flora. As the liver breaks down the estrogens in to estrogen metabolites the metabolites are then broken down further by the flora to prevent reabsorption of the metabolites, which can contribute to estrogen load.

    And since fat cells produce estrogen, if you are overweight losing weight slowly will help. I say "slowly" since rapid weight loss increases the risk of gallstone formation.
    Hi JamesS, thank you so much for such thoughtful and detailed answers. I do have some followup questions on this topic if you don't mind.

    1) From what your answers, I get it that it's important to get the liver in good order so that it can metabolize the estrogen better. What if someone has a weak liver? What can be done to get the liver in shape?

    2) What about existing fibroids that are already formed? What can be done to break them down? I am assuming that the digestive bitters, Vit B, TMG, and probiotics are helpful to stop the fibroids from growing bigger, but how do one shrink them? Does taking enzymes help?

    3) What actually causes fibroids? I read with interest with your earlier post regarding HPV and breast cancer connection, so what about fibroids? The reason that I am asking is that I may take my gynae's suggestion and go for an operation to remove them. She said that the biggest one is actually pressing on my rectum and she's very concerned as I am very petite and slim; and also for future fertility issues. And if I do decide to go for an operation -- which I really don't want to because I understand that fibroids will grow again -- I want to make sure that I DON'T put myself in the situation where there is a possibility for regrowth post operation.

    4) My gynae actually did a blood count test (cos' she was afraid that I would be anemic) and cancer markers tests because she's concerned about my fibroids. Fortunately both tests turn out okay -- the only out of range figures were the white blood cell at 3.6 (unit 10^9/IL, reference 4.0-11) and lymphocytes at 49 % (reference 20-45) However my Pap smear recently did come back abnormal (mild dyskaryosis and LSIL) and I'm worried that my immune system is low. Is it in any way related to my iodine supplement (because you mentioned that iodine will cause some autoimmnune reaction to kick in)? Some background: My previous Pap smear (in 2010) was all clear and the gynae who did it then actually then told me that I can do it once every 3 years and I skipped one year -- I am so upset with her now. I would be getting a 2nd Pap smear end of this month, to get a second opinion before I do a coloscopy. Hypothetically, what kind of advice/ suggestions would to someone with an abnormal Pap smear as this and to increase that person's immune system?

    Thank you again! I am actually enjoying reading all your other posts, and learning alot. You have a good clear way of delivering complex information to laypersons.
    Last edited by chahaya; 08-10-2012 at 11:13 PM.

  2. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesS View Post
    The difference between Grizz and I is the information that I have been presented can be easily verified with a little simple research from the medical journals. But alas, some people prefer to remain bliss in their ignorance.
    The information you are peddling about AZT / AIDS most certainly can NOT be verified with a little google search. It is long since discredited.

    I personally knew several people who died of AIDS in the 1980's before the AZT treatment had become available. I also know several more HIV positive people who have, with the help of AZT (among other things), survived over 2 decades. See for one, Sandor Kratz of "wild fermentation".

    To refer to AIDS specialists as "so called" and to set yourself up as an expert who knows more than them is irresponsible. If you were so knowledgeable and your "opinions" worked, you'd be hailed by now as a latter day saviour who could cure AIDS. But you can't.

    Also chemotherapy; I know some people who have died of cancer IN SPITE of having had chemotherapy, I know some who have lived long and fulfilling lives having had their chemotherapy put cancer into remission.
    Last edited by breadsauce; 08-11-2012 at 01:11 AM.

  3. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesS View Post
    1. Check your basal body temperature for at least a week ...

    2. Exercise.

    3. Diet. In my opinion the diet should be primarily low glycemic vegetables and fiber rich foods...

    4. Digestive bitters to help improve not only digestion but also the breakdown of excess hormones by the liver that would otherwise contribute to weight gain...

    5. Drink plenty of water, especially cold water...
    .
    Thanks JamesS. Much appreciated.

    Re bitters. If one has a fatty liver associated with weight gain, will bitters just add to the workload? I suspect I have liver issues and just want to check it wouldn't be counter productive. Would lemon in water do the trick?

    Thanks again - I am conscious this has nothing to do with Iodine but you have said a few times you won't be checking other threads. Sorry for the slight derail folks!

  4. #324
    JamesS's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=chahaya;925641]Hi JamesS, thank you so much for such thoughtful and detailed answers. I do have some followup questions on this topic if you don't mind.

    1) From what your answers, I get it that it's important to get the liver in good order so that it can metabolize the estrogen better. What if someone has a weak liver? What can be done to get the liver in shape?

    There are a number of herbs that can be used to either protect the liver or support its function. My favorites for support are turmeric followed by schisandra and milk thistle seed. Licorice root is also great especially if there in inflammation involved. To help with function my favorites are bupleurum, schisandra, Phyllanthus niuri and picrorrhiza.

    Quote Originally Posted by chahaya View Post
    2) What about existing fibroids that are already formed? What can be done to break them down? I am assuming that the digestive bitters, Vit B, TMG, and probiotics are helpful to stop the fibroids from growing bigger, but how do one shrink them? Does taking enzymes help?
    You are correct about the bitters, B vitamins or TMG and probiotics or better yet prebiotics. Reducing the estrogen levels will allow the fibroids to shrink on their own.

    As far as enzymes go they will not do much of anything. And I don't advocate most enzymes anyway. Depending on the enzyme they do have their drawbacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by chahaya View Post
    3) What actually causes fibroids? I read with interest with your earlier post regarding HPV and breast cancer connection, so what about fibroids? The reason that I am asking is that I may take my gynae's suggestion and go for an operation to remove them. She said that the biggest one is actually pressing on my rectum and she's very concerned as I am very petite and slim; and also for future fertility issues. And if I do decide to go for an operation -- which I really don't want to because I understand that fibroids will grow again -- I want to make sure that I DON'T put myself in the situation where there is a possibility for regrowth post operation.
    I have not seen any evidence of viruses being involved in fibroids as they are with many cancers.

    Personally, if I were in your situation I would not opt for surgery either. Surgeries carry risks, even minor surgeries and I have seen too many people die from surgery or at least get really screwed up bad. So I personally feel that surgery should only be reserved as a last resort for non-emergency situations. But again that is just my opinion. Still I would do whatever other potential and safe options I have such as diet changes, certain herbs, etc. to address a situation before I would do anything drastic like surgery. It is like when I got bit by a brown recluse spider and it rapidly went down my arm. If I would have gone to the doctor then I am sure that they would have addressed it in part with surgery to remove the necrotic tissue. Instead I addressed the bite with herbs instead.

    But your point about regrowth goes back to what I said I said earlier with cancer as to most of the treatments do not address the cause, which is why the failure rate in allopathic medicine is so high. The same applies for fibroids. Excess estrogen is "feeding" the fibroids. And something is making those estrogen levels high. Simply cutting out the tissue while not addressing the source of elevated estrogen is ludicrous.

    Quote Originally Posted by chahaya View Post
    4) My gynae actually did a blood count test (cos' she was afraid that I would be anemic) and cancer markers tests because she's concerned about my fibroids. Fortunately both tests turn out okay -- the only out of range figures were the white blood cell at 3.6 (unit 10^9/IL, reference 4.0-11) and lymphocytes at 49 % (reference 20-45) However my Pap smear recently did come back abnormal (mild dyskaryosis and LSIL) and I'm worried that my immune system is low. Is it in any way related to my iodine supplement (because you mentioned that iodine will cause some autoimmnune reaction to kick in)? Some background: My previous Pap smear (in 2010) was all clear and the gynae who did it then actually then told me that I can do it once every 3 years and I skipped one year -- I am so upset with her now. I would be getting a 2nd Pap smear end of this month, to get a second opinion before I do a coloscopy. Hypothetically, what kind of advice/ suggestions would to someone with an abnormal Pap smear as this and to increase that person's immune system?
    It sounds like you have a mild active viral infection going as evidenced by the lymphocyte count.

    The low white blood cell count can be from several things including simple things like the use of nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs.

    The only way I am aware of that iodine would adversely affect the immune system would be if resulting hyperthyroidism further weakened adrenal function. The adrenals help to regulate immune responses.

    I am glad to hear you are having things double checked and getting a second opinion before doing any procedures. When you go for a second opinion though don't reveal the findings of the first PAP. Doctors hate to contradict each other and often will agree with the other doctor even though the tests say differently. I have seen this happen quite a few times. Also keep in mind that abnormal PAPs can occur for a number of reasons including smoking, various infections, birth control pills, etc. You should research the reasons for false positives so you can address these possible causes before going back in if need be.

    Quote Originally Posted by chahaya View Post
    Thank you again! I am actually enjoying reading all your other posts, and learning alot. You have a good clear way of delivering complex information to laypersons.
    Thanks.

  5. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by breadsauce View Post
    The information you are peddling about AZT / AIDS most certainly can NOT be verified with a little google search. It is long since discredited.
    Argue all you want. You just admitted that you were not able to find the information on Google, and thus you could not have a clue if it were discredited or not. So you just proved to myself and everyone else that you have not really researched the claims and are simply posting to argue. Therefore, if you want to continue to debate me on this then actually do the research this time and post the evidence that it has been discredited. Not from some opinion site, but actual research that counters what I have stated. Good luck!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by breadsauce View Post
    I personally knew several people who died of AIDS in the 1980's before the AZT treatment had become available.
    I see that you not only love to argue over things you don’t understand, but you also did not bother to read what I wrote carefully. As I pointed out AIDS is not a disease, it is a syndrome. What do you think the “S” stands for in AIDS? Now, go look up what a syndrome is. Syndromes can have multiple causes. The virus human herpes virus type 6 variant A (HHV6-A) that unlike HIV can collapse the immune system HHV6-A was around long before AZT and is the only virus we know of that could cause the symptoms of AIDS under the original definition. HIV could not, which is why they changed the definition of AIDS to fit the HIV virus later on to cover up Gallo's newest lie. If you still think I am wring then show me the proof that HIV can cause AIDS under the original definition. If you cannot come up with the evidence then you will prove my point that you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by breadsauce View Post
    I also know several more HIV positive people who have, with the help of AZT (among other things), survived over 2 decades. See for one, Sandor Kratz of "wild fermentation".
    .“Among other things”. So how can you say AZT had anything to do with it? Maybe it was those “other things”. Or more likely, the person was NEVER infected in the first place and the AIDS was AZT induced to begin with. False positives on HIV tests are rampant mainly due to serological cross reactivity. Although there are other reasons. And how do you explain 1. The fact that so many AIDS patients test negative for HIV? And 2. All the cases of people having “spontaneous remissions” after going completely off their AIDS drugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by breadsauce View Post
    To refer to AIDS specialists as "so called" and to set yourself up as an expert who knows more than them is irresponsible. If you were so knowledgeable and your "opinions" worked, you'd be hailed by now as a latter day saviour who could cure AIDS. But you can't.
    A person does not have to be an expert on AIDS to know what the “S” stands for in AIDS and what a syndrome is. A real AIDS expert though should know. Just like they should know why there are multiple causes. And they should know why AIDS testing is such a joke do to its extremely low accuracy. They should know that it is pure stupidity to use a less accurate “confirmation” test to “verify” the results of a more accurate HIV antibody test. They should know that a drug that wipes out the immune system will cause the symptoms by which an AIDS diagnosis can be given. They should know a lot more about AIDS as well but most of these so-called AIDS experts don’t because like you they don’t do the actual research and read the real studies that are easy to find if one looks.

    Just like you don’t see the error in your statement here”If you were so knowledgeable and your "opinions" worked, you'd be hailed by now as a latter day saviour who could cure AIDS”. You don’t cure syndromes, you cure diseases. Once you learn the difference you will see why and why our other statements were just as wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by breadsauce View Post
    Also chemotherapy; I know some people who have died of cancer IN SPITE of having had chemotherapy, I know some who have lived long and fulfilling lives having had their chemotherapy put cancer into remission.
    Well goody two shoes for you!!!! So now that you got that off your chest please show me where you think I have ever claimed that chemotherapy has a 100% failure rate. In fact, I was just recently mentioning that the most effective chemotherapy drugs developed are Vincristine and Vinblastine derived from the herb Madagascar perwinkle. And I mentioned these drugs have around an 80% success rate. An 80% success rate DOES NOT mean that everyone dies from it. Now wonder you did not understand any of the research or explanations I have provided!!!

  6. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by katemary View Post
    Thanks JamesS. Much appreciated.

    Re bitters. If one has a fatty liver associated with weight gain, will bitters just add to the workload?
    No, it will help the liver to function more efficiently. But again, start out slow and build up to three times daily and drink plenty of water throughout the day. Also remember not to do bitters if you have had your gallbladder removed. Not sure if you have or not, but people need to be aware to not use bitters in these cases.

    Quote Originally Posted by katemary View Post
    I suspect I have liver issues and just want to check it wouldn't be counter productive. Would lemon in water do the trick?
    Lemon juice is acidic and acids are considered sour, not bitter. Unless you want to chew on the lemon peels.

  7. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danielle5690 View Post
    The amount of conflicting information "out there" is a bit overwhelming. Who do we trust?

    James, what would you consider too large of a dose?

    I had been eating according to the Primal Blueprint for about 6 months before I started iodine supplements. My cycles regulated and my menstrual pain almost entirely disappeared only after I started the iodine. I take 6mg per day (unless I forget). My TSH was high at my last thyroid hormone check, but that could be because my dose was too low. Does iodine react directly with T4 or the TSH secretion mechanism in the absence of a thyroid gland?

    I'm thinking of stopping the supplement for a month or two to see what happens, as a self-experiment.
    I am struggling with dosing too. I have been taking approximately 6 mg of iodine every other day for the past 3 months and I feel the best I have felt in the last 15 or so years. I am feeling even better now than when I adopted a paleo diet 3 years ago. I have regained a sound, restful sleep, decreased anxiety, no more dark moods, increased energy levels. I could go on and on. So not sure what I am going to do either. I will be having my thyroid panel drawn next week.

  8. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by breadsauce View Post
    The information you are peddling about AZT / AIDS most certainly can NOT be verified with a little google search. It is long since discredited.
    Here is an example of how easy it is to do a real search for facts:

    MMS: Error

    "No randomized trials in asymptomatic patients have established that those treated early survive any longer than those for whom treatment is deferred. Extended follow-up of patients in one trial, the Concorde study, has shown a significantly increased risk of death among the patients treated early.3 The trials mainly involve monotherapy with zidovudine."

    Note that zidovudine is AZT.

    And an example of the studies showing that there is a difference between the virus HIV and the syndrome AIDS and that HIV+ does not mean one has or will develop AIDS:

    Even Individuals Considered as Long-Term Nonprogressors Show Biological Signs of Progression After 10 Years of Human Immunodeficiency Virus Infection

    " Nevertheless, a number of cohort studies have shown that, despite a decade of infection, a small percentage of HIV-positive individuals remain symptomless and maintain a high CD4+ T-cell count without any intervention of antiviral therapy.4-8 "

    So why do these people stay healthy despite no antiretroviral therapy? Well first of all HIV tests are notoriously inaccurate having over 65 known causes for false positives. Therefore, many of the people testing HIV were never exposed to or chronically infected with HIV to begin with. These healthy people though would have had their bone marrow destroyed and thus their immune systems collapsed if they had undergone zidovudine therapy leading to the symptoms that define the syndrome AIDS:

    Management of the Adverse Effects of Antiretroviral Therapy and Medication Adherence

    "both zidovudine and ganciclovir may cause bone marrow suppression"

    The time of administration of 3'... [Antimicrob Agents Chemother. 1993] - PubMed - NCBI

    "3'-Azido-3'-deoxythymidine (AZT) is the drug most widely used in the treatment of AIDS. Its major drug-related toxicity is bone marrow suppression, which limits the dose of AZT that can be used."

    Zidovudine-induced reversible pure red cell aplasia

    "Anemia is well described in acquired immunodeficiency syndrome (AIDS). This has been attributed to the virus or drugs used in the treatment of opportunistic infections. Highly active antiretroviral drugs (HAART) cause suppression of the bone marrow cell precursors, leading to bone marrow failure.[1] "

    We see the results of the bone marrow destruction in forms such leukopenia (low white blood cell count):

    MMS: Error

    "Leukopenia occurred in 82 percent of the patients receiving early therapy and 77 percent of those receiving late therapy; 20 percent and 16 percent, respectively, had anemia"

    Side effects of AZT prophylaxis after occupational exposure to HIV-infected blood. - Abstract - UK PubMed Central

    "The study population comprised health care workers who were taking AZT prophylaxis after accidental exposure to HIV-infected blood. Fourteen individuals were included into the study; seven of them discontinued treatment prematurely, five due to severe subjective symptoms. In case of one worker AZT had to be stopped due to severe neutropenia (800 cells/microliters) with signs of upper respiratory tract infection. Four of 11 individuals taking AZT for at least 4 weeks developed neutropenia "

    Note that leukopenia includes a drop in CD4 counts, which as has been pointed out can lead to an AIDS diagnosis since a diagnosis of AIDS is based on symptoms. The decline of all white blood cells leads to opportunistic infections that also allow for the diagnosis of AIDS.

    And of course along with severe immune suppression from this supposedly antiviral chemotherapy drug, zidovudine, comes the increased risk of developing cancer:

    Development of non-Hodgkin lymphoma in a coho... [Ann Intern Med. 1990] - PubMed - NCBI

    "Patients with symptomatic HIV infection who survive for up to 3 years on antiretroviral therapy may have a relatively high probability of developing non-Hodgkin lymphoma. "

    Hodgkin's lymphoma is a viral induced cancer. Look it up.

    And what does it say about zidovudine in the Physicians Desk Reference (PDR)?:

    RETROVIR | Product Labeling | PDR.net

    "5.1 Hematologic Toxicity/Bone Marrow Suppression

    "RETROVIR (AZT) should be used with caution in patients who have bone marrow compromise evidenced by granulocyte count <1,000 cells/mm3 or hemoglobin <9.5 g/dL. Hematologic toxicities appear to be related to pretreatment bone marrow reserve and to dose and duration of therapy. In patients with advanced symptomatic HIV-1 disease, anemia and neutropenia were the most significant adverse events observed. In patients who experience hematologic toxicity, a reduction in hemoglobin may occur as early as 2 to 4 weeks, and neutropenia usually occurs after 6 to 8 weeks. There have been reports of pancytopenia associated with the use of RETROVIR, which was reversible in most instances after discontinuance of the drug. However, significant anemia, in many cases requiring dose adjustment, discontinuation of RETROVIR, and/or blood transfusions, has occurred during treatment with RETROVIR alone or in combination with other antiretrovirals."

    "5.2 Myopathy

    Myopathy and myositis with pathological changes, similar to that produced by HIV-1 disease, have been associated with prolonged use of RETROVIR."

    There is so much more evidence that can still be presented that can be found both online and for the journal articles not online from the medical library.

    So look and ye shall receive!

  9. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesS View Post
    Not from some opinion site, but actual research that counters what I have stated. Good luck!!!

    I see that you not only love to argue over things you don’t understand, but you also did not bother to read what I wrote carefully. As I pointed out AIDS is not a disease, it is a syndrome. What do you think the “S” stands for in AIDS? Now, go look up what a syndrome is.
    ...prove my point that you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

    ...like you they don’t do the actual research and read the real studies that are easy to find if one looks.

    You don’t cure syndromes, you cure diseases. Once you learn the difference you will see why and why our other statements were just as wrong.

    Well goody two shoes for you!!!! Now wonder you did not understand any of the research or explanations I have provided!!!
    And I get accused of being curt and condescending?

  10. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesS View Post
    So look and ye shall receive!
    OK, it's official. The Medical Quackery Thread has a new messiah.

    Ya know, James, you have said how much you don't like Grizz and how you think he believes in some pretty cookoo stuff but did you realize that your posting styles are very similar?

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