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  1. #291
    SerialSinner's Avatar
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    Thanks for the useful hangover tips MG. I am pretty good at sticking to paleo, but, from time to time the power of booze does compel me.
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  2. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by Molecular Grokologist View Post
    @ cerebelumsdayoff

    TONS of stuff goes on when you fast. I won't reproduce here what's been excellently covered here: http://www.fitnessspotlight.com/2008...gy-production/.

    Yes, some people find it harder to lean out or get big because of their genes.

    How is your muscle mass right now? Paradoxically, it can sometimes be hard to lean out without muscle and hard to gain muscle until you lose fat.

    You can probably get big and lean if you want, but you might really have to work for it.
    Well I have been doing the Warrior Diet style eating plan, as Kev mentioned, for 10 months. That is what I count as a daily IF as I don't eat anything until 7 pm each day. The website you gave me was very interesting as it discussed all the physiological changes occurring inside the body during a fast.

    For several months I have been doing strength training with kettlebells and found that my strength has significantly improved, although my tone is not exactly at the level I would have imagined. Even with IFs, I quickly went from a 35lb to a 50lb that I have been using for several months now.

    What I really wonder is whether it is greatly beneficial to do a daily IF like I have been doing or whether my body would adjust to this type of eating which may eventually downplay any effects that IFs could evoke.
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  3. #293
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    Great to see you back, Grokologist, and with such a good appetite for wading through posts!

    You say:
    -------
    If you really want to get crazy, phosphatidyl-choline, phosphatidyl-serine, taurine, N-acetyl-cysteine, inositol, vinpocetine and gingko may help as well.

    Nobody really knows how aswagandha works, but it's good for you anyways, so you might give it a shot.
    -------

    If ever there were a time to get crazy, this is that time. I just bought some NAC, and i think I have some gingko in a cupboard with the other supplements. I'll get hold of the rest.

    By the way, I have found out that ashwagandha tincture (I use the Herb Pharm brand, bought from vitacost.com) works a lot better than the capsules of ground root. I've also found a source for the plants. Once I'm fit enough, I plan to grow it and tincture it myself. (What better way to know exactly what's in a tincture, and to avoid irradiation, adulteration by heathen Chinese, stale tired herbs, etc. Though I do trust Herb Pharm.) It's a nightshade. While it is perennial in much of its range overseas, it can be grown here as an annual, like tomato plants. When the frost knocks down the tops, one harvests the roots. (Judging by the Sanscrit name, they smell like horse sweat.) I've read about some really nice anti-cancer effects, and also a calm energy. It is called an "adaptogen". What interested me the most was some research which talked about it being good for rebuilding damaged neural nets -- something about helping the dendrites extend and find each other.

    When you talk about aging research, it seems to me ashwagandha is right up there ...

    I've been taking the benfotiamine for just over two weeks now. Reading up on the stuff, it seems to me that I should take it, possibly at some kind of maintenance dose later on, for the rest of my life. Myelin aside, it would be worth it just for the anti-glycation. It makes my pee smell like thiamine, but nothing wrong with that.

    I've taken methyl B12 for just over a year, sublingual. After getting home from the hospital, I've taken a lot more than before, alternating with cyanocobalamin because that sublingual tablet has some folate as well.

    Someone sent me another hint to explore (nothing like writing about my plight to large email lists ...) Progesterone and Schwann cells. Googled it, and sure enough! Schwann cells make their own progesterone, from pregnenolone (and, I assume other steroid-like hormones?) And when the Schwann cells are making myelin, some of those abstracts I wade slowly through, probably missing a lot, seem to say that the progesterone receptors are firing like mad.

    And there was some place that talked about young women with MS, who were gradually going downhill, but they would stop getting worse if they got pregnant, until after birth, then they'd start getting worse again. It did seem a hint to me that the Schwann cells might appreciate having background progesterone around to grab hold of, instead of having to make all of it from scratch.

    So, since post-menopausal women are very low in progesterone, I thought, what harm, getting the background level a little higher? I found some progesterone cream, the kind one buys in a grocery store, and started putting it around (not in) my eyes, and on my hands. Hands not better so far, but about three days after starting, my eyes started gradually being able to make a single image -- first, only nearby, in a dim room, when looking exactly the right place ... down and to the right. Later, in brighter light, and over a few days, a wider field of view. Yesterday I started being able to see the computer screen without the eye patch. If I move around, everything splits and jumps pretty badly. Much better if my head is still. Now and then, I get a single image from further away, but intermittent. I'm going to go on using the progesterone cream I think. It's not all that strong, anyway. Over time, it's a good idea to stop using it five days a month, to reset receptors. Anyway, that's what I did just post-menopause.

    I decided at some point that I'm not a science experiment, and trying everything I can think of, so long as it doesn't hurt me, is better than carefully testing which thing might do me good, one at a time. Since the general prognosis is for improvement over time, and there is no way to predict how long any particular person will take to heal the myelin, there is no way to tell which of these approaches is effective. If they appear to make sense biochemically, especially if, like ashwagandha, they have other good effects, I plan to use them. If nothing else, the sense that one can fight the problems is worth the effort.

    I found one interesting factoid about Vitamin B1, from many years before benfotiamine was invented. There was a doctor working with MS patients, who fed them large amounts of B1, and who also injected it right into their spines. They'd be wheeled into the operating room, he'd inject (ordinary) B1 into their spines, AND THEY'D WALK BACK TO THEIR ROOMS! The trouble was, the body throws it off so quickly that he couldn't keep enough of it in them. All the stuff I've found on he web indicates that benfotiamine keeps high levels of thiamine in blood and liver over, time, but apparently it goes around Robin Hood's barn getting there. Some people in Liege studied it, said it wasn't oil-soluble (which some of its proponents had claimed) but admitted that it does greatly help diabetic complications, and is retained in the body very much better than plain thiamine.

    They did a study on diabetic rats with retinopathy. Fed them benfotiamine for a long time (in rat years) and after awhile their retinas could not be distinguished from those of ordinary rats. I'm wondering if the anti-glycation might even leave one in old age with no age spots on one's hands.

    The latest thing I'm waiting to have delivered is magnesium oil. I have a lot of aches and pains (even before the Miller Fisher) which I think magnesium chloride (transdermal) might help. Now, with weakened muscles which I'm gradually starting to use again, I'm getting crampy feelings. I have never been able to take magnesium by mouth, because it would irritate my bowel, even the supposedly gut-friendly type like glysinate.

    By the way, the queasiness got a lot better when I started having some apple cider vinegar with a teaspoon of honey in warm water in the morning, and kim chee with other meals, and a little kombucha in the evening. Getting off the damned pain meds (what a chore!) helped as well.

    I write far too long posts ............. but, so fine to see you here again, and thanks for your patience.
    Last edited by piano-doctor-lady; 06-21-2010 at 11:52 PM.

  4. #294
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    This is my favourite thread MG, I managed to read through all the posts so far!!!

    Just a quick question about multivitamins - Is the B12 found in wholefood multi's like these usable? http://www.iherb.com/New-Chapter-Org...ets/23313?at=0 I'm assuming it's from fermenting food.......

    Would you recommend this or any other product? Thanks!
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  5. #295
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    Siiiiiiick, thanks for the answer and the chart. Damn I wish I knew more biochemistry for these reasons.

    I know you're researching the idea of veggies causing DNA damage and oxidative stress being a good thing with regards to aging. Does have that to do with putting us in "repair and patch-up" mode rather than apoptosis and proliferation mode? As I understand it every time we need to completely replace the cell its telomere shortens and that is at the root of cellular aging. Are these statements true? And are there any ways to avoid this aging besides just not obliterating our cells with reactive foods and excessive eicosanoids activity?

    Also Dr. Eades has a post where he makes the case that "vegetarians AGE faster" and he makes the case that it's the increased fructose from fruit and vegetables. I have to be skeptical because in the chart not only are fruit and vegetable intakes higher but honey is too. Fruit has phytonutrients like quercetin that disband AGEs but honey aside from some anti-fungal properties seems to be just pure sugar so I can't be sure which one it is. Even thought when someone eats an apple the apple has stuff like quercetin, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's 100% protective or even significantly protective against the AGEs that the fructose creates but I was wondering if you knew how much fruits protect aging their own fructation. I find that high-fat and fruit don't really mix very well, even if most of the way is saturated and monounsaturated so I don't tend to eat a lot of fruit besides some berries but it would be nice to know the extent to which fruit fructates proteins. Peter from hyperlipid would say that they're AGEing the hell out of us and Don from Primal Wisdom would brush it aside so I'm a bit stumped.

    edit: one more. Does de novo lipogenesis of from glucose produce the same ill-effects as from fructose? I know it's not as common because all fructose has to go the liver to be metabolized but in the case of insulin resistance or severe fat restriction it could be more common.
    Last edited by Stabby; 06-22-2010 at 04:35 PM.
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  6. #296
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    Great thread. Thanks, Grokologist, for doing this. Still reading back posts. Excellent stuff.

  7. #297
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    Hi Mol-Grok,

    What would you recommend for a person with multiple lipomas (mostly arms and legs, and my father had them too). Is there anything I can do to safely reduce them and/or prevent getting new ones? I'd rather not surgically remove them because it's trading a lump for a scar. I've read there's an injection that dermatologists can use to "melt" them but clinical trials are still needed and it may not be safe: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16310057
    Thanks.

  8. #298
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    @ rphlslv

    There may be one, but I wouldn't care to recommend any because I don't know anything about it, I'm afraid.

    @ cerebellumsdayoff

    I wouldn't anticipate that adaptation to fasting eliminates many of the beneficial effects. Studies on mice fasted on alternate days for their entire lifetimes, for example, show consistent effects throughout.

    @ muaythaimike

    I would expect so. B12 is typically acquired from heat-treated yeast for multis like that.

    @ Stabby

    First, I'd like to point out that those vegetarians were eating about a pound and a half of fruit a day. Yikes.

    Second, the ranges for their carboxy-methylysine and fluorescent AGE measurements were wide and overlapping which doesn't give me a ton of confidence in their conclusions.

    I wouldn't really describe either population as "high vegetable" since they were eating about .25 lb a day. It's not low, but 100g of veg isn't unusually high for most people. It's the pound and a half of fruit that freaks me out.

    That said, I'm skeptical of fructose's ability to glycate much outside of the digestive tract and the liver anyways. Circulating levels of fructose are very low indeed, only tiny amounts for signaling purposes. Sure, it could cause insulin resistance, which would disregulate blood sugar, which would increase systemic glycation, but directly, no.

    What I suspect the issue may be (if indeed there was one), is that the various antiglycation nutrients absent from their meatless diet may have caused greater amadori product (AGE precursor) formation in the gut, and that this may have been exacerbated by their (presumably) increased intake of PUFA over SFA and MUFA (PUFA autoxidation facilitates glycation in the surrounding environment.)

    I wouldn't sweat a modest serving of fruit two or three times a day, people. Especially not if you're eating it with the antiglycating nutrients in meat.

    Regarding de novo lipogenesis, it happens all the time on the SAD. It's not great, because the newly made fats get packaged into trigs that are carried around in VLDL particles. It doesn't (usually) damage the liver the way that fructose does, but it does pose the same cardiovascular risks.

    @ Canarygirl

    Some lipomas respond well to local steroid injection, and some but not all can be ablated with lasers. Liposuction is useful to shrink many lipomas, but is frequently unable to remove the whole mass.
    Give me liberty. Exploration of other options will be vigorously discouraged.

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  9. #299
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    Great answer. Thank you.

    Those dudes who play with lab rats swear that caloric restriction increases the lifespans of animals but that seems very counter-intuitive to me; I tend to look at food as nutrients and health-promoters and eat as much as I want until I'm full. Is the stuff they feed rats terribly unhealthy and the less of it the better or is food just inherently life-shortening? I've been reading a few guys like Dr. Ron Rosedale and Ray Peat who say that the more insulin is secreted in a lifetime, the shorter the lifespan, and the more polyunsaturates we consume, the less healthy we'll be (and the more insulin we will secrete too) so I'm thinking that they were just feeding rats the typical sucrose, corn starch and soybean oil feed and maybe that doesn't apply to good food. They also say that we want to have fast metabolisms and eat a lot/burn a lot. Here it says that caloric restriction reduces testosterone, but Mark was just lauding the hell out of higher testosterone so there's a contradiction. Also here they claim that hyper-metabolic mice live longer and they think it has to do with more efficient mitochondria. Mark and Robb Wolf have mentioned that you don't want to have too high a metabolism or you age yourself prematurely, but that also seems iffy. I personally like being hyper-metabolic! Maybe another explanation is that both hyper-metabolism and caloric restriction decrease body fat which releases more cytokines and stresses the heart? Anyway I'm just blindly speculating and rambling here. I guess my formal question is: what do you think caloric intake has to do with longevity and what kind of a metabolic action do you think is ideal?
    Last edited by Stabby; 06-23-2010 at 06:48 PM.
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  10. #300
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    It's not just a case of avoiding bad stuff in the food, but neither is food inherently life-shortening.

    CR works by multiple mechanisms, which are (very) roughly that:

    Less carbohydrate -> less insulin -> less insulin resistance -> better blood sugar control -> less glycation
    Less metabolism -> less mitochondrial ROS -> less damage accrued over time to mDNA
    Less protein -> increased autophagy -> improved turnover of damaged or dysfunctional proteins and organelles
    Less carb and protein -> less IGF and TOR signalling -> more repair and less growth, Improves immune response and decreases inflammation (organism changes strategy from outbreed to outlast)

    I think that low carb is very promising, although periodic spikes may be beneficial. Low protein is also very likely to be good, but I'm uncertain if periodic low protein might be sufficient to reap the benefit.

    What to eat (and do) for longevity (as far as we know) is an incredibly complex question that really merits a series of posts instead of the treatment I've given it here.

    I hereby commit to start a blog that will deal with nutrition and aging research. PM me if you have an idea of what I should call it.

    CR is legit, though.
    Give me liberty. Exploration of other options will be vigorously discouraged.

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