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Thread: Ask a biochemist. page 11

  1. #101
    Molecular Grokologist's Avatar
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    @ pdl

    As far as the salt, spiking salt intake can cause osmoregulation difficulties in various tissues and muscles are among the more sensitive because of the way that muscle contractions are set in motion (i.e. with floods of Ca2+ ions rushing here and there). That tends to cause cramping rather than soreness, however.

    Fat loss might well help, because everything works better when we're lean (or at least lean-ish).

    Unless when you say "dieting hard" you mean sustained low protein intake combined with intense exercise, it's not likely you've been eating a bunch of your muscle.

    A number of drugs and infectious diseases can cause prolonged muscle pain, but unless you're taking lots of medication or are regularly feeling ill, it's probably not that.

    Unfortunately it could be so many things that it's really impossible for me to say without running a battery of tests and getting a medical history from you. My gut? Poor osmoregulation due to any number of factors. I would try keeping salt intake level (not necessarily low, just even), and see if that clears up the problem.

    @ eyeshield

    1. As with any laxative, it's possible to develop a dependency if you overuse it. That's not to say it would be irreversible, but it might be unpleasant. Also, you might be interested to know that Senna makes you regular by irritating the gut lining, which can't be a good thing.

    2. If it were me, I wouldn't cut calories so drastically on a chronic basis, although periodic low-cal or no-cal (fasting) days would be good. Just eat real food, keep carbs low. More walking and better sleep would probably also go a long way.
    Last edited by Molecular Grokologist; 04-03-2010 at 11:44 AM.
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  2. #102
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    piano-doctor-lady is offline Senior Member
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    Thanks, Grokologist

    By "dieting hard" I mean the (stupid) low carb low calorie diet that the naturopath put me on, the one that had me exhausted. I showed signs of protein lacks the whole time I was on it, even while I ate good quality animal protein at each meal. Sore muscles, cartilage went from bad to worse, rough skin, twitchy eyelids, exhaustion, depression, thinning hair, gums receding, easily injured muscles which would take months to heal. You'd think I'd been eating vegan from that list, but I wasn't at all.

    In retrospect, the only thing I can think of which makes sense to me is that I never managed the turnaround to burning fat. High cortisol and anxiety and stress and fatigue, etc., probably kept me burning sugar even when most of it had to come from gluconeogenesis. Well, I really don't know -- and the naturopath just ignored all my symptoms and complaints. As long as the figures from the tape measure and scale went down, it was all he cared about. Finally I had a high stress job problem (I was given a harpsichord to fix up and keep tuned, an elderly amateur kit-built Hubbard double manual with lots of problems for which I had not been trained, and a REAL harpsichordist was flying in from the east coast to play it in a festival.) Something happened all at once around then, like an on-off switch. I was walking down the hallway at home, and suddenly (it seemed) every joint in my body started to crackle and hurt, especially my knees. I've gradually come back from that -- at least it was enough to get me off the diet -- but my left knee is still clicking and very unhappy if I make it bend "normally" when walking.

    In the afternmath, as soon as I put some calories and starch back in my eating, I instantly regained the 40 pounds I had lost, right onto my front. Muscles and joints were extremely slow to turn around and start to heal. And though I was eating almost as I had before dieting, my morning glucose numbers were 25 points higher on the same food. This was late 2006. I never want to go "there" again!

    By the way, that time of semi-fasting on ghee and coconut oil seems to have everything more limber, and standing up isn't nearly as painful as it was quite recently. I'm starting to feel some considerable hope, especially after reading your explanation of how the body reorders its protein "to do" list, and also cleans up some of the broken proteins lying around.

    Hooray, so to speak! Today for the first time since the debacle, I was carrying something into the house and didn't feel the need to put it down before I stepped up onto the porch. At my worst, I'd put down anything I was carrying, and grab the wall molding with one hand to pull myself sideways as I stepped up, always with the right leg.

  3. #103
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    MG - thanks for your reply way back on page 2 to my questions! I can be MIA for a while on these fancy forum things but I did want to say thank you. As for nutrition vs. biomed, I know nutrition would definitely have CW bias, but was hoping the nutraceuticals aspect would be pretty awesome and perhaps compensate. But I think biomed would be hella good; either way I hear about admission decisions in the next few weeks

  4. #104
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    You're welcome, and I wish you the best of luck.
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  5. #105
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    I have heard a lot of conflicting opinions on whether amount or just ratio of omega 3:6 fatty acids matters in production of inflammatory eicosanoids. A lot of people think that it doesn't matter the amount as long as the ratio is close, but there are a good deal of hardcore paleo people who talk about reducing tissue concentration of omega 6 which means keeping intake to basic nutritional requirements and no more. So my question is does omega 3 inhibit the production outright or counteract already existing inflammation, or both? And what significance does tissue concentration have?

  6. #106
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    We naturally did not ingest massive amounts of either n-3 or n-6 PUFA, so we don't have spectacular regulatory mechanisms. The enzymes which manufacture eicosanoids for us (both inflammatory and anti-inflammatory) tend to just make the signalling molecules from them without paying too much attention to how many are already circulating.

    Each type competes for access to many of the same enzymes, so they competitively inhibit each other at any level of intake. Ratio is all that's important here.

    Each type also displaces the other from tissue. Ratio again.

    Some eicosanoids inhibit further eicosanoid production, but this runs mostly in the direction of (n-3 derived) ---| (production of n-6 derived). Because of this, at the same ratio, you can be a bit better off with a higher intake of PUFA.

    Lastly, PUFA are prone to peroxidation and free radical production. This is concentration-dependent, so here you're better off with less PUFA.

    The takeaway: Good ratio is always important. Moderate intake of PUFA isn't necessarily bad as long as the ratio is good. Interestingly, high intake of n-3 PUFA does not seem to cause most of the adverse events that n-6 intake does, suggesting that most of the PUFA evil may just be from improper eicosanoid balance rather than peroxidation.

    You're probably slightly better off with lower intakes, but I don't think it's worth stressing yourself out over.
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  7. #107
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    Great answer. I read that IHD thing on whole health source and it seemed to appear that total intake correlated directly with IHD and therefore inflammation, but if the different omega fatty acids displace each other in the tissue then the USA with their huge IHD and huge omega 6 concentration were hugely deficient in omega 3 fatty acids, and another factor would be that much of that omega 6 would be oxidized before ingestion, contributing heavily.

    Still I think I'll keep it to a 1:1 PUFA ratio under 5% total energy. Some of that being GLA, none of it oxidzed.

    Okay so the Kitvans, high glucose intake, no real insulin resistance or metabolic syndrome, clearly carbo type metabolisms well adapted to glucose. But we know that many people do not have such an adaptation and don't do very well on large amounts of starch, even if it doesn't necessarily originate metabolic syndrome, what problems could the chronic elevated insulin from a SAD without the fructose do? Besides making one feel terrible and gain weight. I have a hard time believing that large amounts of grains, even if it's rice or quinoa properly soaked and cooked without much of the antinutrient baggage from wheat, could be totally innocuous to "protein type" metabolisms. I don't necessarily subscribe to metabolic typing but I do realize that there are those with genetic adaptations to higher carbs and those without.

    edit: not necessarily the glucose what with increased glycation and an adverse lipid profile, but more the insulin left behind and constantly elevated from eating.
    Last edited by Stabby; 04-06-2010 at 09:01 PM.

  8. #108
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    I stay away from a thread for a few days, and you guys make it too long for me to catch up in a reasonable amount of time.

    Anyway, I thought about posting this to a new thread, but I figure that most interested parties are here anyway, and I don't want to step on any CrossFit toes. I haven't finished watching these videos (they're really pushing my rule 6 envelope tonight), but enjoy: http://journal.crossfit.com/2010/04/...production.tpl

  9. #109
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    Constantly elevated insulin (as opposed to periodically spiked insulin) triggers growth factor receptors and causes undesirable cell proliferation. It may also contribute to dementia by interfering with clearance of beta-amyloid from the brain. It also signals "mature, reproduce, and die" to some parts of the system, causing you to age faster in some ways. I'm probably missing something.
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  10. #110
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    MG-Do artificial sweeteners raise insulin levels? Someone suggested this might be true, and I've been wondering ever since. About a month before I tried PB I was failing miserably at a low carb/low fat diet, I had ordered some protein powder sweetened with sucralose, when I got it it was far too sweet. I had used the same brand before and had really liked it, but now found it unusable. Glad I found an alternative in bacon LOL. I have an herbal tea I like that's sweetened with something called "guilin sweet fruit", supposedly virtually calorie free, I can live with out the protein powder, but I'd really like to have the tea with out screwing with my insulin.

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