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Thread: The True Definition of Calories i.e. "Why what you believe is extremist BS" page 51

  1. #501
    impala454's Avatar
    impala454 is offline Senior Member
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    I never really understand the point to these threads you start Choco. They're always the same format:

    <Insert reason why I'm right and you're all wrong>

    <Insert emotionally driven sensational language explaining that you're all emotionally driven and sensational about your posts>

    <Insert cut down of various wrong ideas and the "gurus" that support those ideas>

    <Insert your own ideas and gurus/blogs that support your idea>

    Honestly all you really do is stir up ranting. It doesn't help anyone to completely try to "shake" everyone up. People are here for a reason, that's because whatever they're doing isn't working for them. Neither your ideas nor Mark Sisson's nor anyone else's are the stone cold truth. What is the stone cold truth is that people coming here need a change. Even if it's in the wrong direction, it's at least a different direction from where they were. Only through trying various diet/exercise/lifestyle ideas will the individual find exactly what works for them. I guarantee you it won't be your ideas or Mark's that work for them, it'll be what that person discovers on their own. The constant "shake ups" you post on here don't help anyone at all, it just confuses people and stirs up ranting (like my own post here).

    The best advice is to try something new, and if that doesn't work for you, keep trying new things until you do find something that works for you. That will almost certainly be different for everyone.
    -Chuck

  2. #502
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    Quote Originally Posted by cori93437 View Post
    Brehm BJ, et al. A Randomized Trial Comparing a Very Low Carbohydrate Diet and a Calorie-Restricted Low Fat Diet on Body Weight and Cardiovascular Risk Factors in Healthy Women. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2003;88:1617–1623.
    A Randomized Trial Comparing a Very Low Carbohydrate Diet and a Calorie-Restricted Low Fat Diet on Body Weight and Cardiovascular Risk Factors in Healthy Women
    Volek JS, et al. Comparison of energy-restricted very low-carbohydrate and low-fat diets on weight loss and body composition in overweight men and women. Nutrition & Metabolism 2004, 1:13.
    Nutrition & Metabolism | Full text | Comparison of energy-restricted very low-carbohydrate and low-fat diets on weight loss and body composition in overweight men and women
    All of the studies above note LC vs LF with equal caloric restriction for both diets.

    Also... studies that simply pit LC with LCal/LF without specific caloric restriction noted, or no caloric restriction for LC... LC wins.
    Samaha FF, et al. A Low-Carbohydrate as Compared with a Low-Fat Diet in Severe Obesity. N Engl J Med 2003;348:2074–81.
    MMS: Error
    Sondike SB, et al. Effects of a low-carbohydrate diet on weight loss and cardiovascular risk factor in overweight adolescents. J Pediatr. 2003 Mar;142(3):253–8.
    Elsevier
    Aude YW, et al. The National Cholesterol Education Program Diet vs a Diet Lower in Carbohydrates and Higher in Protein and Monounsaturated Fat. A Randomized Trial. Arch Intern Med. 2004;164:2141–2146.
    JAMA Network | Archives of Internal Medicine | The National Cholesterol Education Program Diet vs a Diet Lower in Carbohydrates and Higher in Protein and Monounsaturated FatA Randomized Trial
    Yancy WS Jr, et al. A Low-Carbohydrate, Ketogenic Diet versus a Low-Fat Diet To Treat Obesity and Hyperlipidemia. A Randomized, Controlled Trial. Ann Intern Med. 2004;140:769–777.
    A low-carbohydrate, ketogenic diet versus a l... [Ann Intern Med. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI
    Shai I, et al. Weight loss with a low-carbohydrate, mediterranean, or low-fat diet. N Engl J Med 2008;359(3);229–41.
    MMS: Error
    Westman EC, et al. The effect of a low-carbohydrate, ketogenic diet versus a low- glycemic index diet on glycemic control in type 2 diabetes mellitus. Nutr. Metab (Lond.)2008 Dec 19;5:36.
    Nutrition & Metabolism | Full text | The effect of a low-carbohydrate, ketogenic diet versus a low-glycemic index diet on glycemic control in type 2 diabetes mellitus
    Summer SS, et al. Adiponectin Changes in Relation to the Macronutrient Composition of a Weight-Loss Diet. Obesity (Silver Spring). 2011 Mar 31. [Epub ahead of print]
    http://www.nature.com/oby/journal/v1...by201160a.html
    Daly ME, et al. Short-term effects of severe dietary carbohydrate-restriction advice in Type 2 diabetes–a randomized controlled trial. Diabet Med. 2006 Jan;23(1):15–20.
    Short-term effects of severe dietary carbohydrate-restriction advice in Type*2 diabetes—a randomized controlled trial - Daly - 2005 - Diabetic Medicine - Wiley Online Library
    Westman EC, et al. The effect of a low-carbohydrate, ketogenic diet versus a low- glycemic index diet on glycemic control in type 2 diabetes mellitus. Nutr. Metab (Lond.)2008 Dec 19;5:36.
    Dyson PA, et al. A low-carbohydrate diet is more effective in reducing body weight than healthy eating in both diabetic and non-diabetic subjects. Diabet Med. 2007 Dec;24(12):1430-5.
    A low-carbohydrate diet is more effective in redu... [Diabet Med. 2007] - PubMed - NCBI
    Nutrition & Metabolism | Full text | The effect of a low-carbohydrate, ketogenic diet versus a low-glycemic index diet on glycemic control in type 2 diabetes mellitus

    One review of about 15 studies stated...
    Discussion
    "The results of the present review show that weight loss was
    significantly greater in the LC/HP (treatment) group after
    6 and 12 months compared with the LF/HC group."
    *There was also noted improvement in blood lipids and other health markers (BP etc.)

    Debunk all you like. *shrug*
    Regardless of some mysterious 'metabolic advantage', or not, its easy to see that LC diets to tend to promote weight loss over and above LCal/LF diets over time.
    This important to people who need to lose weight whether you like it or not.
    And yes, macro inputs matter. Fat =/= sugar.
    All calories being equal... LC or MC (still vastly lower than SAD) wins.

    If macros weren't important I wouldn't be able to look up about 1000 references to macro ratios posted by Chaco himself I would think.
    What else ya got?

  3. #503
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes View Post
    Would everyone who puts 400 calories of butter in their coffee please raise your hands?

    Sometimes I think there's still a lot of fat phobia around here because the criticism is always around fat and not around protein or carbohydrates. From what I understand, if there even is a person that puts 400 calories of butter in their coffee (and I don't think there is a single person on this web site who does), isn't the point of doing that that you then feel no need to eat until dinner time? Wouldn't that actually put you ahead of the game in the CICO universe, especially compared to someone eating 600 calories of chicken and broccoli?

    (Cue the lecture about empty calories. Funny how quality can be dismissed and invoked as needed.)
    I don't put butter in my coffee.
    But some days I bump it up with a measure of raw cream in addition to the raw milk...
    Making an iced coffee of about 300 cal.
    I don't feel bad about it... I did this yesterday and still only ate 800-900 cal for the day, despite adding butter to my generous serving of veg(with pork loin chop on the side).
    I have to get calories somewhere, I cannot tolerate volume most days, and I deal with nausea that makes chewing solid foods extremely unpleasant particularly early in the day.
    On days that I have less nausea I just use raw milk in the coffee, replace the cream calories with food, and try to get a higher calorie count for the day.

    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes View Post
    I drank a can of coconut milk once. What is that, 700 or 1400 calories. Oh my god I was so sick all day long. I never tried that again. I think at most I've put 2 tablespoons of butter in my coffee. It seems the butter in coffee thing really triggers some kind of response in fat-phobic and low-carb phobic people, a response not unlike what we were all trained to think when the whole low-fat thing came out around 1980, which I remember clearly, being old enough to remember such things.
    I keep a can of coconut milk in the refrigerator for emergency days when I feel like I can't chew/swallow food at all without being sick.
    I whip it (solid white part only, watery part discarded), sweeten it lightly with a little stevia, maybe add some dutched cocoa powder... and eat a few spoons full here and there as the day progresses and make sure I finish the entire can.
    It is calorically dense, but light on my stomach because I don't try to eat it all at once.
    It has kept me from having too many very, very, low calorie days when I'm having serious difficulty with nausea.

    If I were fat phobic I'd never get anywhere near my goal calories.
    Last edited by cori93437; 08-02-2012 at 10:02 AM.
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
    ~Friedrich Nietzsche
    And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.


  4. #504
    Iron Will's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by impala454 View Post
    I never really understand the point to these threads you start Choco. They're always the same format:

    <Insert reason why I'm right and you're all wrong>

    <Insert emotionally driven sensational language explaining that you're all emotionally driven and sensational about your posts>

    <Insert cut down of various wrong ideas and the "gurus" that support those ideas>

    <Insert your own ideas and gurus/blogs that support your idea>

    Honestly all you really do is stir up ranting. It doesn't help anyone to completely try to "shake" everyone up. People are here for a reason, that's because whatever they're doing isn't working for them. Neither your ideas nor Mark Sisson's nor anyone else's are the stone cold truth. What is the stone cold truth is that people coming here need a change. Even if it's in the wrong direction, it's at least a different direction from where they were. Only through trying various diet/exercise/lifestyle ideas will the individual find exactly what works for them. I guarantee you it won't be your ideas or Mark's that work for them, it'll be what that person discovers on their own. The constant "shake ups" you post on here don't help anyone at all, it just confuses people and stirs up ranting (like my own post here).

    The best advice is to try something new, and if that doesn't work for you, keep trying new things until you do find something that works for you. That will almost certainly be different for everyone.
    Awesome post.

  5. #505
    magnolia1973's Avatar
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    The best advice is to try something new, and if that doesn't work for you, keep trying new things until you do find something that works for you. That will almost certainly be different for everyone.
    and... if what worked for you does not work for someone else, it doesn't mean that you are wrong or that they did it wrong. It just means they are different.

  6. #506
    Kingofturtles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by annedawso View Post
    If it is just CICO why do individuals lose more weight on different diets that have the same calories?
    I actually do have an eye to my calories, as I have found as a 46 year old woman I need to or I dont lose weight.
    I think I have messed myself up with all the years of fad diets etc

    if you eat clean cals your body mainatains itself. Read the link.

  7. #507
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    I sometimes do the bulletproof coffee thing. When I make it, I put in 2 tablespoons of butter and a tablespoon of coconut oil if (if I remember it) for a batch that makes two full cups of coffee. (I also dump a bunch of cinnamon in, because yum.)

    If you're using organic, pastured butter you're getting healthy fats, CLAs, and yummy breakfast calories all at once. And I'm certainly good for many hours on the run without snacking afterwards, which I value because I work in an office with absolutely no institutional respect for the lunch hour. I wouldn't guzzle it in addition to bacon and eggs and avocado, but when I don't have the inclination to cook in the morning (or don't have anything made-ahead on hand), it's a handy shortcut and not all that unhealthy.

  8. #508
    Iron Will's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cori93437 View Post
    I wonder if he was monitored the whole time, 24 hours a day?
    That seems to be the criteria that Chaco wants for the studies posted that show LC weight loss advantage...
    I don't think his parents gave him enough attention when he was a kid.

  9. #509
    Lawyerchick12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by impala454 View Post
    I never really understand the point to these threads you start Choco. They're always the same format:

    <Insert reason why I'm right and you're all wrong>

    <Insert emotionally driven sensational language explaining that you're all emotionally driven and sensational about your posts>

    <Insert cut down of various wrong ideas and the "gurus" that support those ideas>

    <Insert your own ideas and gurus/blogs that support your idea>

    Honestly all you really do is stir up ranting. It doesn't help anyone to completely try to "shake" everyone up. People are here for a reason, that's because whatever they're doing isn't working for them. Neither your ideas nor Mark Sisson's nor anyone else's are the stone cold truth. What is the stone cold truth is that people coming here need a change. Even if it's in the wrong direction, it's at least a different direction from where they were. Only through trying various diet/exercise/lifestyle ideas will the individual find exactly what works for them. I guarantee you it won't be your ideas or Mark's that work for them, it'll be what that person discovers on their own. The constant "shake ups" you post on here don't help anyone at all, it just confuses people and stirs up ranting (like my own post here).

    The best advice is to try something new, and if that doesn't work for you, keep trying new things until you do find something that works for you. That will almost certainly be different for everyone.
    I do not think Choco is stirring up rants with this particular thread. I for one, naturally and through scholarly training love to have logical arguments with evidence and love seeing a different angle of something I may not have considered on a topic. I do not see how that is "stirring up rantings'. I am certain there are MANY people like me, who initially came or still come to these forums thinking that from a weight loss perspective (again strictly weight loss) all they have to do is eat primal or the even more hilarious restrict carbs to almost non existent levels before they can experience weight loss. I mean it is pretty common sense that getting your the nutrients and vitamins that your body needs from whole foods is better for your long term health, no one to my knowledge is debating that. But so many people are here for weight loss and not primarily for health improvements.

    Maybe I am vain, whatever, but I really just want to lose the last 10-15 pounds and will continue to appreciate alternative explanations and discourse as to why these pounds are not coming off. What is the point of having these kind of threads if a person gets all butthurt because someobne is not towing your view? Shiiiid if I have somehow discovered the secret and it was working for me 100 percent, what the hell will I care if someone else believed or accepted my method or not....

    ugh...OAN this thread is going to cause me real trouble at work. so unmotivated/bored with sooooo much to do....#sigh

  10. #510
    Leida's Avatar
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    Sihana, Cori, please, ignore if this is too intrusive, but is there a medical issue of some sort that makes you unable to chew or feel nauseated when you eat food? I have never heard about anyone being unable to eat food save for like a stomach flu, and throwing up during that time, but just normal food? I sometimes feel nauseated at the smell of butter or if I eat more than a teaspoon of coconut oil at a time, or if I eat greasy meal (like roasted chicken with fat or pork fat) so your experience is exactly the opposite? Fat makes you feel good, while like veggies and meats or dairy make you feel sick on your stomach?
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