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Thread: The True Definition of Calories i.e. "Why what you believe is extremist BS" page 39

  1. #381
    cori93437's Avatar
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    Primal Fuel
    The Okinawa report is a bit old... and parts of it have been hashed pretty thoroughly as misrepresentation.
    But Japan as a whole did enjoy the status of having that oldest living population for a while. Mostly due to the study of smaller pocket communities who continued to eat very traditional diets after the big cities were already leaning towards more modern western eating patterns.
    However... the diet of traditional Okinawa sounds pretty good... greens, veg, sweet potato, rice, fish, fermented soy, pork.
    It also has to do with their active lifestyle.
    However... the same longevity was found in pockets of Sardinia where they eat a diet centered on meat (sheep) and cheese.

    Most of the scientists that study this type of thing agree that there is a huge component of genetics at play in longevity, not simply diet.

    If you look towards who is at the top of the pile right now, you will see that it is no longer Japan.
    As of 2011 they have moved to roughly 5th on the list behind Monaco, Macau, San Marino, and Andorra...
    Perhaps more studies are in order.
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
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    And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.


  2. #382
    Paleobird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StackingPlates View Post
    First off, it wasn't a rant. And, if you subscribe to Sisson's version of Paleo™ then it absolutely does equal low carb, don't fool yourself.
    First of all, nobody has the TM on "paleo" it means a lot of different things to different writers and bloggers. If you are going to talk about Mark's brand name it is "Primal" and he does have the TM on that. Yes, Mark's recommendations are low (er) carb but still leave a lot of room for variations (e.g. guys like Choco). The PB book is aimed at people who need to lose weight. And it works.

    Secondly, tell me once where I ridiculed someone who made Paleo™ work for them and told them to stop eating that way? I just got done talking about how many folks I work with are die hard Paleo™ fanatics and I don't try to convert them or talk them out of it?
    Um, calling them "fanatics" is pretty much ridicule right there.

    Again, I never recommend "over indulging" and always maintain the stance of maintaining your targets over the long term. Many will find that they have considerable "wiggle room" where they can choose to eat non Primal treats, some even daily.
    Why deprive yourself of a type of food you enjoy if you can do so and still hit all your targets?
    This sounds perfectly fine to me. For you. I don't know that "many" will have that much wiggle room. If you are trying to lose weight, you have to make every single calorie as nutrient dense as possible.

    As you said, the only real disconnect between us is that you still seem to be reserving caution that non "primal approved" foods somehow automatically lead to chronic issues. I would challenge you to back that up, or at least think about how there is really no evidence that this is true.
    Like I said, come back when you're 45 and tell us how great you feel. Until then, I'm eating clean.
    And if you want some evidence that junk food leads to physical problems, try looking around you at all the expanding waistlines, elevated BP, diabetes, etc.
    ----
    Last edited by Paleobird; 07-31-2012 at 03:03 PM.

  3. #383
    Dirlot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post
    This sounds perfectly fine to me. For you. I don't know that "many" will have that much wiggle room. If you are trying to lose weight, you have to make every single calorie as nutrient dense as possible.

    As you said, the only real disconnect between us is that you still seem to be reserving caution that non "primal approved" foods somehow automatically lead to chronic issues. I would challenge you to back that up, or at least think about how there is really no evidence that this is true.
    Like I said, come back when you're 45 and tell us how great you feel. Until then, I'm eating clean.
    And if you want some evidence that junk food leads to physical problems, try looking around you at the expanding waistlines, elevated BP, diabetes, etc.
    +1

    Not many people will die if they have a home made cookie or two or some other "treat" but that does not mean that the empty calories are good for you.

    All I know is that eating whole foods that I can pick, dig, hunt or fish is much more satisfying and even before primal my taste-buds were maturing and finding cardboard pizza and store bought cakes pretty bland. So unless is it a full on fat, rich indulgent dessert I won't eat it!
    Eating primal is not a diet, it is a way of life.
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  4. #384
    Paleobird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirlot View Post
    +1
    All I know is that eating whole foods that I can pick, dig, hunt or fish is much more satisfying and even before primal my taste-buds were maturing and finding cardboard pizza and store bought cakes pretty bland. So unless is it a full on fat, rich indulgent dessert I won't eat it!
    Yes, I don't see why someone would find this WOE to be a "dietary jail" to quote Stacking. You take some frozen peaches from your garden and blend it with raw pastured cream and you have soft serve for dessert.
    I agree, pizza doesn't even appeal anymore. I think that's the thing that many don't get. It's not about deprivation. It's about changing your tastes to be more in tune with your body's needs. Sure, it's an adjustment but, once it's made, there is no going back to cardboard pizza.

  5. #385
    otzi's Avatar
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    Interesting and timely article published today...

    Comparison with ancestral diets suggests dense acellular carbohydrates

    A novel hypothesis of obesity is suggested by consideration of diet-related inflammation and evolutionary medicine. The obese homeostatically guard their elevated weight. In rodent models of high-fat diet-induced obesity, leptin resistance is seen initially at vagal afferents, blunting the actions of satiety mediators, then centrally, with gastrointestinal bacterial-triggered SOCS3 signaling implicated. In humans, dietary fat and fructose elevate systemic lipopolysaccharide, while dietary glucose also strongly activates SOCS3 signaling. Crucially however, in humans, low-carbohydrate diets spontaneously decrease weight in a way that low-fat diets do not. Furthermore, nutrition transition patterns and the health of those still eating diverse ancestral diets with abundant food suggest that neither glycemic index, altered fat, nor carbohydrate intake can be intrinsic causes of obesity, and that human energy homeostasis functions well without Westernized foods containing flours, sugar, and refined fats. Due to being made up of cells, virtually all "ancestral foods" have markedly lower carbohydrate densities than flour- and sugar-containing foods, a property quite independent of glycemic index. Thus the "forgotten organ" of the gastrointestinal microbiota is a prime candidate to be influenced by evolutionarily unprecedented postprandial luminal carbohydrate concentrations. The present hypothesis suggests that in parallel with the bacterial effects of sugars on dental and periodontal health, acellular flours, sugars, and processed foods produce an inflammatory microbiota via the upper gastrointestinal tract, with fat able to effect a "double hit" by increasing systemic absorption of lipopolysaccharide. This model is consistent with a broad spectrum of reported dietary phenomena. A diet of grain-free whole foods with carbohydrate from cellular tubers, leaves, and fruits may produce a gastrointestinal microbiota consistent with our evolutionary condition, potentially explaining the exceptional macronutrient-independent metabolic health of non-Westernized populations, and the apparent efficacy of the modern "Paleolithic" diet on satiety and metabolism

  6. #386
    cantare's Avatar
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    +1 on interesting... I tried posting that Spreadbury article over on the Research forum, but no one bit...maybe it'll get more dissection here now that Choco got everyone riled with his "extremist BS" title ;-D
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  7. #387
    otzi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cantare View Post
    +1 on interesting... I tried posting that Spreadbury article over on the Research forum, but no one bit...maybe it'll get more dissection here now that Choco got everyone riled with his "extremist BS" title ;-D
    Could you see more than just the abstract?

    edit: oops, just saw you post in Research, here's the pdf. Thanks!

    http://www.dovepress.com/getfile.php?fileID=13214
    Last edited by otzi; 07-31-2012 at 03:26 PM.

  8. #388
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post
    Yes, I don't see why someone would find this WOE to be a "dietary jail" to quote Stacking. You take some frozen peaches from your garden and blend it with raw pastured cream and you have soft serve for dessert.
    I agree, pizza doesn't even appeal anymore. I think that's the thing that many don't get. It's not about deprivation. It's about changing your tastes to be more in tune with your body's needs. Sure, it's an adjustment but, once it's made, there is no going back to cardboard pizza.

    +1!

    I was an epicurean before I went primal so no I don't miss junk food. As for that picture of the donut as a bun, if some one eats that kind of food I'm sure they know it's not good for them and if they feel deprived not eating that kind of crap it's probably too late to retrain their palate.

  9. #389
    Sue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes View Post
    I'm sorry but those still look like bagels to me. I know there's a krispy kreme shop somewhere around here because sometimes they turn up at office meetings, but I have never actually been to a krispy kreme shop myself so I guess I'm just not familiar with donuts that look like bagels.

    By the way, real American cheese is really good. If you can find it.

    Oh, and long ago before I adopted this diet I read Carb Sane's website because I didn't believe eating meat and fat and avoiding grains and going low carb was healthy. After reading her whole site I concluded she was a total nut case. She's disgruntled because she didn't get the weight loss she wanted. It really seems odd that so many people now just love her. It also seems really odd that it's in fashion to declare "I'm not paleo anymore. I hate paleo." If that's what people want to do that's fine, but I love paleo. I love the food, I love how it makes me feel, I love the positive health results I've had, I love the simplicity of cooking, I love that my food doesn't sit in a pantry growing moth larva. I love that when I'm hiking in the mountains the food I see is greens, mushrooms and moose and when I go home and open my fridge I see greens, mushrooms and meat. I have no intention of following the trend to love Carb Sane and that other Richard guy and the once reasonable now completely angry wack-job Dr. Harris. That's all popularity contest bull-shit. The science hasn't changed.
    You asked about the studies of guest blogger so I linked Evelyn's take on it.

  10. #390
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    Quote Originally Posted by otzi View Post
    Interesting and timely article published today...

    Comparison with ancestral diets suggests dense acellular carbohydrates

    A novel hypothesis of obesity is suggested by consideration of diet-related inflammation and evolutionary medicine. The obese homeostatically guard their elevated weight. In rodent models of high-fat diet-induced obesity, leptin resistance is seen initially at vagal afferents, blunting the actions of satiety mediators, then centrally, with gastrointestinal bacterial-triggered SOCS3 signaling implicated. In humans, dietary fat and fructose elevate systemic lipopolysaccharide, while dietary glucose also strongly activates SOCS3 signaling. Crucially however, in humans, low-carbohydrate diets spontaneously decrease weight in a way that low-fat diets do not. Furthermore, nutrition transition patterns and the health of those still eating diverse ancestral diets with abundant food suggest that neither glycemic index, altered fat, nor carbohydrate intake can be intrinsic causes of obesity, and that human energy homeostasis functions well without Westernized foods containing flours, sugar, and refined fats. Due to being made up of cells, virtually all "ancestral foods" have markedly lower carbohydrate densities than flour- and sugar-containing foods, a property quite independent of glycemic index. Thus the "forgotten organ" of the gastrointestinal microbiota is a prime candidate to be influenced by evolutionarily unprecedented postprandial luminal carbohydrate concentrations. The present hypothesis suggests that in parallel with the bacterial effects of sugars on dental and periodontal health, acellular flours, sugars, and processed foods produce an inflammatory microbiota via the upper gastrointestinal tract, with fat able to effect a "double hit" by increasing systemic absorption of lipopolysaccharide. This model is consistent with a broad spectrum of reported dietary phenomena. A diet of grain-free whole foods with carbohydrate from cellular tubers, leaves, and fruits may produce a gastrointestinal microbiota consistent with our evolutionary condition, potentially explaining the exceptional macronutrient-independent metabolic health of non-Westernized populations, and the apparent efficacy of the modern "Paleolithic" diet on satiety and metabolism
    Someone linked to it a few weeks back in comments on Wholehealth source:
    " The acellular carbohydrates of flour,94 sugar and pro- cessed plant-starch products are considerably more dense. Grains themselves are also highly dense, dry stores of starch designed for rapid macroscopic enzymic mobilization during germination.95 Whereas foods with living cells will have their low carbohydrate density “locked in” until their cell walls are breached by digestive processes, the chyme produced after consumption of acellular flour and sugar-based foods is thus suggested to have a higher carbohydrate concentration than almost anything the microbiota of the upper GI tract from mouth to small bowel would have encountered during our coevolution. This may stimulate differing bacterial species to prosper or be outcompeted, or increase some microbial metabolic pathways and waste products in preference to others. It is proposed that the effects of these enhanced car- bohydrate concentrations will include a more inflammatory GI microbiota, initially causing leptin resistance, hence the greatly elevated leptin levels seen in Western populations when compared to those eating a wholly cellular diet.7,12–15"

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