How can I help my raw vegan aunt? page 2

[JoanieL]

I was wondering how old she is? Sometimes older people start eating less for a variety of reasons: depression, taste buds getting old, just not interested in the joy of food prep anymore.

Also, I don't know how close you are to her. My grandmother lived to 86, but the last couple of years, say after 82, I'd keep an eye on her to see if anything changed. If she'd been going to bed at 5pm, I would have worked it into the conversation somehow. But we were close, so I could do that.

If you decide to talk to her, you might start with, "Aunty, you know how much I love you, right?" It's an ice breaker fersure.

Good luck and good health to your aunt.

[statikcat]

I would not steer her away from veganism if that is what she wants to do. You can be perfectly healthy on a vegan diet. Some people are vegan for animals and ignorant on health. The most important thing with food is not fat vs carbs it is overall quality nutrients. She needs to be eating mostly fruits and vegetables and avoiding processed foods. If she is tired all the time she is probably not eating enough calories. Have her try eating lots of fruit to get more calories in. Since plant diet is mostly carbs you need to eat more throughout the day.

And she should be tested for B12.

[Danielle5690]

I would start a gentle, respectful conversation about it with her - but only if you talk often and only if she brings up how tired she is first. Ask her if she's checked her B12 level. See if she might just need to eat more food (I found it incredibly difficult to get enough calories on a raw vegan diet - after a few months I added dairy and cooked beans back in because I was ALWAYS hungry).

[statikcat]

See if she might just need to eat more food (I found it incredibly difficult to get enough calories on a raw vegan diet - after a few months I added dairy and cooked beans back in because I was ALWAYS hungry).

How did you have trouble raw vegan w calories? You can make a 1500 calorie smoothie in the morning alone.

[Heth]

I agree on the B12 test, it's really important. Although it's a tricky issue because our 'ideal' levels in the West are not very high. So your aunt may get a test, think she's normal and think nothing more of it, even though she'd benefit greatly from supplementation. I'd just bring up in a polite and friendly way that you were reading about veganism and deficiencies and you wonder if she's had a blood test recently. You don't have to hassle her. I was raw vegan for 2 years and I actually got blood tests because people were agressively challenging me! That didn't feel good. Many people at different times in my raw vegan journey questioned me. But also I didn't realise I had become unhealthy - I think because the raw vegan community is so dogmatic it's easy to get swept along with that and not be able to look out of your little bubble.

So, yes I think you should say something, but totally avoid pressuring, offending or being dogmatic.

[Omni]

Should all animals eat a high-fat, low-carb diet? - Part One: The Basis for a High-fat Diet

I don't know if pointing this out might be helpful but from what I've heard about Vegans they tout how Primates our nearest relatives and what they eat...and mention teeth structure etc... The fact is even Gorillas and Ruminants...don't eat tons of carbohydrates...

Did I just say that? Yes, I did and in a sense that is completely false they do eat tons of plant matter that consists of a decent amount of carbohydrates if you break down their diet you get a high carbohydrate low fat moderate protein diet...if you exclude the fact that their guts breakdown the massive amounts of Fiber they get into Short Chain Fatty Acids ie fats. Their diet ..or at least what they actually get their energy from is high fat, low carb, moderate protein the exact opposite of what they eat.

Humans do not do this conversion in the gut. Humans can be decently healthy with a good amount of carbohydrates if they have enough activity to utilize the carbohydrates and keep them from going to fat stores and upping insulin...not so easy to keep up with though.

Although humans may not do it as well as other primates, we do still have a very effective fibre fermentation/digestion process going on in a healthy gut & in addition to that there are indications that it is quite healthy to have a good balance of fibre in the diet. Have a look at the following papers:
http://www.ajcn.org/content/31/6/927.full.pdf
Short-Chain Fatty Acids and Human Colonic Function: Roles of Resistant Starch and Nonstarch Polysaccharides
The first one, done in 1978, was analysis of fecal matter between controls and subjects who had lower intestine removed(illness) determining what % of fibre is digested.
The second one is a lot more detailed (36 pages) discussing all the different aspects of fibre digestion in humans, some of the key features being the a certain portion of fatty acids produced are absorbed directly by the gut to power it's own process and the heat generated from fermentation contributes significantly to thermogenesis, hence reducing the energy demand on the rest of the body.
That's not to say that being Vegan is healthy, just that eating Fruit & Vegetables is healthy for most of us, another incidental thing that I read recently and need to look into better is the presence of GAG's (GlucoAminoGlycans), these are complex carbs that form the bulk of connective tissue in the inter cellular spaces in skin, fat, muscle etc., well it appears that these meat "carbs" are also digested by the same fermentation process in the lower intestine, but I do need to look into this one a bit more. So whether it is plant fibre or animal fibre we still need to maintain a healthy gut flora for proper digestion.

Ribbons
Re your aunt, do what you think you should do, if you personally feel obliged to say something, then do so, speak to her, tell her of your concerns & why but do not harp on about it, say your piece then let it go. She will come to a point in the future and remember your words, if you keep going on about it, she will most likely dig in even deeper, people are like that they will "cut off their nose despite their face".

[Chaohinon]

I wouldn't throw her head-first into the meat department, but at least get her to start cooking her food again. She needs some calories pronto. Cooking = broken down cell walls = more bio-availability and caloric load is pretty basic shit, especially if you're going for a vegetable-centric diet.

If she loads up on plenty of cooked starchy and non-starchy vegetables, beans, lentils, nuts, non-gluten grains, avocados, coconut, olives, and tempeh, that should at least get her engine revving again even if her hormones and gut bacteria don't fully recover.

As much as it pains me to say this, McDougall might actually be the guy to turn to here. He strongly, and imo rightfully, emphasizes the role that starchy plant organs have played in the human diet, and at least debunks raw vegan "food has a life force and when you cook it it dies *_*" bullshittery. Just sayin' she's more likely to take the advice from a fellow vegan than from a source like WAPF or the paleosphere.

Best case scenario: you could get her to compromise with eggs & dairy, but I wouldn't bank on that as the further you push the more likely she'll reject you. But definitely slip some whey protein, b12, and creatine into her weed brownies.

[Raiken3712]

I wouldn't say go fully cooked but certain things have advantages when cooked...so figuring out what things those are and letting her know about it would be good. Some things have advantages cooked and others raw...and some have advantages both ways

If I remember right eggs are good raw but you also get something more from them when cooked...so they are good both ways. Some vegetables may be like this too...don't know myself.

[Raiken3712]

Although humans may not do it as well as other primates, we do still have a very effective fibre fermentation/digestion process going on in a healthy gut & in addition to that there are indications that it is quite healthy to have a good balance of fibre in the diet. Have a look at the following papers:
http://www.ajcn.org/content/31/6/927.full.pdf
Short-Chain Fatty Acids and Human Colonic Function: Roles of Resistant Starch and Nonstarch Polysaccharides
The first one, done in 1978, was analysis of fecal matter between controls and subjects who had lower intestine removed(illness) determining what % of fibre is digested.
The second one is a lot more detailed (36 pages) discussing all the different aspects of fibre digestion in humans, some of the key features being the a certain portion of fatty acids produced are absorbed directly by the gut to power it's own process and the heat generated from fermentation contributes significantly to thermogenesis, hence reducing the energy demand on the rest of the body.
That's not to say that being Vegan is healthy, just that eating Fruit & Vegetables is healthy for most of us, another incidental thing that I read recently and need to look into better is the presence of GAG's (GlucoAminoGlycans), these are complex carbs that form the bulk of connective tissue in the inter cellular spaces in skin, fat, muscle etc., well it appears that these meat "carbs" are also digested by the same fermentation process in the lower intestine, but I do need to look into this one a bit more. So whether it is plant fibre or animal fibre we still need to maintain a healthy gut flora for proper digestion.

Ribbons
Re your aunt, do what you think you should do, if you personally feel obliged to say something, then do so, speak to her, tell her of your concerns & why but do not harp on about it, say your piece then let it go. She will come to a point in the future and remember your words, if you keep going on about it, she will most likely dig in even deeper, people are like that they will "cut off their nose despite their face".

Interesting so basically its saying that humans also digest fiber in a functioning gut to Short Chain Fatty acids...the kinds of fats they listed can be used for energy I'm guessing but they still didn't list EPA/DHA...these are different than listed I think...and EPA/DHA source still isn't there for Vegans. The sources that work best are still animal sources from my understanding. I've read that ALA will convert but is terribly inefficient in humans.

Still if you eat all that sugar ...don't you have to make sure to use it all or it'll cause glycation/fat storage and other problems? Surely dietary thermogenesis can't account for everything...even if you do use/burn all of those carbs...your still low on B12 EPA/DHA...and perhaps some others...From what I can tell raw food vegan is pretty healthy..but I already thought it was...still missing on some major things and certainly isn't optimal from what I can tell. Sounds like it may be unhealthy in the long term.

A bit off topic..so I'll end there since its unrelated to her aunt and all. I've had some relevant posts though so I don't think its a major deal. Just don't want to hijack the thread.

[Omni]

Interesting so basically its saying that humans also digest fiber in a functioning gut to Short Chain Fatty acids...the kinds of fats they listed can be used for energy I'm guessing but they still didn't list EPA/DHA...these are different than listed I think...and EPA/DHA source still isn't there for Vegans. The sources that work best are still animal sources from my understanding. I've read that ALA will convert but is terribly inefficient in humans.

Still if you eat all that sugar ...don't you have to make sure to use it all or it'll cause glycation/fat storage and other problems? Surely dietary thermogenesis can't account for everything...even if you do use/burn all of those carbs...your still low on B12 EPA/DHA...and perhaps some others...From what I can tell raw food vegan is pretty healthy..but I already thought it was...still missing on some major things and certainly isn't optimal from what I can tell. Sounds like it may be unhealthy in the long term.

A bit off topic..so I'll end there since its unrelated to her aunt and all. I've had some relevant posts though so I don't think its a major deal. Just don't want to hijack the thread.

Not too far off topic if it is getting a balanced view & better understanding of the issues involved,
Agree entirely with the EPA/DHA & B12 stuff, just so much easier to eat a bit of meat.

My understanding is the Vegan approach is not sustainable long term without artificial supplementation of B12, if anyone knows otherwise I would like to hear about it. That's not to even consider difficulties with overall nutritional balances.
Vegeterianism is better, but still requires significant attention to detail in nutritional meal planning.
A low to moderate meat intake with lots of fruit & Veg ensures a wide range of nutrients for the body consistantly without too much planning required.
A full ketogenic (Animal based) diet on the other end of the scale also needs some attention to detail with overall protein intake and electrolyte balancing.

So my bets for a healthy & easy approach is in that mid range, if her Aunt can at least bend some of her philosophy to do some cooking, have the odd egg, a bit of dairy & maybe a little bit of fish or chicken on special occassions that will be a big step as it is.