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  1. #1
    silas's Avatar
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    PUFA so bad?

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    PUFA content in nuts can be high along with phytic acid content and yet consumption can have a drastic lowering effect on cholesterol.

    Now I am not trying to get into a "cholesterol doesn't matter" conversation but simple saying isn't it interesting that we have a food that's effect is lowered cholesterol along with lowered inflammation markers? and the supposed effect of this effect is the PUFA? or is it the phytic acid,saponins, & tannins that are actually beneficial??
    Omega 6i is high also in seeds and nuts, so should we really be scared of Omega 6's?
    Last edited by silas; 07-18-2012 at 06:20 PM.

  2. #2
    Timthetaco's Avatar
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    I think it's a great idea to avoid damaged omega 6's from seed oils, but beyond that, I don't think there's any science behind the magic ratio at all. Every so often the community re-exams certain beliefs and ends up growing a bit (remember sweet potatoes?), and I think this one should be next.

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    As I understand it, there are two things wrong with PUFAs.
    1) They're generally made through a chemical process, often involving a poisonous solvent (hexane).
    2) At high heat (like, if you're frying them) they turn into trans fats (they become about 27% trans fat). Trans fat bad!

    I think J. Stanton said it best...

    Eat More “Heart-Healthy” Trans Fats! (We hid them in plain sight) - GNOLLS.ORG

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    Quote Originally Posted by silas View Post
    PUFA content in nuts can be high along with phytic acid content and yet consumption can have a drastic lowering effect on cholesterol.

    Now I am not trying to get into a "cholesterol doesn't matter" conversation but simple saying isn't it interesting that we have a food that's effect is lowered cholesterol along with lowered inflammation markers? and the supposed effect of this effect is the PUFA? or is it the phytic acid,saponins, & tannins that are actually beneficial??
    Omega 6i is high also in seeds and nuts, so should we really be scared of Omega 6's?
    There are very few things that the broader paleo and paleo-ish community agrees with. O6 being evil is pretty much one of the only ones.

    After I cut back my O6, I can feel if I've had too much, and I can see the inflammation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch666 View Post
    As I understand it, there are two things wrong with PUFAs.
    1) They're generally made through a chemical process, often involving a poisonous solvent (hexane).
    2) At high heat (like, if you're frying them) they turn into trans fats (they become about 27% trans fat). Trans fat bad!

    I think J. Stanton said it best...

    Eat More “Heart-Healthy” Trans Fats! (We hid them in plain sight) - GNOLLS.ORG
    You didn't even read that link you posted, did you? Or if you did, you completely misunderstood it. It says:

    "Industrial canola oil for deep-fat frying contains 27% trans fat."

    Then it links to this as the source:

    Nutrition Facts and Analysis for Oil, vegetable, industrial, canola (partially hydrogenated) oil for deep fat frying

    Which is the nutrition facts for: Oil, vegetable, industrial, canola (partially hydrogenated) oil for deep fat frying

    I am pretty sure after the trans fats scare a few years ago almost all fast food places stopped using hydrogenated oils for deep frying, so it really isn't an issue unless you go to one of the few restaurants still using hydrogenated oils. KFC, Mcdonalds, and Burger king have all eliminated hydrogenated oils.

  6. #6
    Dirlot's Avatar
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    After the companies were told trans fats were healthy they were then told they weren't after the scare.

    They may have a eliminated the trans fat but a canola/soy oil blend.....blah Canola Blend Oil :: McDonalds.com
    Eating primal is not a diet, it is a way of life.
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    PUFAs from industrial oils are bad, as they easily become rancidified and are often converted to trans fats.

    PUFAs from fish are a great source of omega-3s.

    Again, eat whole, real foods. The PUFAs in nuts are fine in moderation.

  8. #8
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    Polyunsaturated fats have been shown to lower cholesterol. However, that's total cholesterol, and it typically drops at the expense of HDL. If you want to drop your total cholesterol, which is an arbitrary number, at the expense of HDL, that would be misguided. While total may drop, often your ratio of HDL:LDL and HDL:triglycerides degrade. On another note, while eating a diet high in saturated fat and low in polyunsaturated fat typically increases cholesterol, it's because you are seeing a sharp rise in protective HDL and ratios improve significantly.

    Another thing you have to recognize is that there is more than one type of polyunsaturate fat. Omega 6 polyunsaturated fats found in animal products is primarily arachidonic acid - while it is pro-inflammatory, the entire healing process that the body relies on depends on inflammation. Without arachidonic acid, you cannot heal appropriately. While ruminant meat seems to be the most beneficial, that doesn't mean eating chicken is going to kill you because it has more polyunsaturated fat. It is primarily arachidonic acid.

    Plant-based omega 6 polyunsaturated fat is linoleic acid. This is where the problem comes in. Soybean oil, canola oil, cottonseed oil - this is linoleic acid. It is inflammatory and not really necessary like arachidonic acid. Nuts are high in linoleic acid, but I'm not going to sit here and tell you that nuts = soybean oil. That is a ridiculous assessment. You can eat nuts, but treat them as a condiment/topping and not a dietary staple. You shouldn't be snacking on nuts every single day, but if you're tossing some on a salad or having an occasional handful, you'll be okay. If your biggest indulgence is some dark chocolate and a handful of pecans you're way ahead of the game.

    Omega 3 is even dicier. Omega 3's are more unstable than omega 6's, so it's even more important to focus on quality here. Flax, hemp, chai, walnuts and other plant sources of omega 3's contain ALA-based omega 3, which is mostly useless by the human body. It has to be converted to EPA/DHA, and the processes are very inefficient, especially for men. I would recommend NOT eating flax, hemp and other omega 3's from plants. They're incredibly unstable, and please do NOT bake with them. I'm less concerned about walnuts because they're a whole food, but always, enjoy in moderation and not as a staple food.

    Omega 3's from animals (like fish) is the EPA/DHA that scientists say we "need". I don't know if I believe that, but I'd much rather eat animal-based omega 3's than plant-based omega 3's.

    I still don't care for a high PUFA diet. It seems to be pro-inflammatory. I refuse to take fish oil. IMO, if fish oil makes you feel better, that is a huge issue because you're so inflamed that it's actually helping. IMO, the ideal diet is a low PUFA diet. FWIW, omega 3 is "linolenic" acid, not to be confused with "linoleic" acid mentioned above, which is a plant-based omega 6.

    Got all that? Me neither.

    Polyunsaturated fat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Breakdown:

    Omega 3's

    α-linolenic acid (ALA) = parent omega 3, largely plant-based (18 carbons, 3 double bonds), highly unstable.
    Breaks down (inefficiently) in the human body into animal-based eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA, 20 carbons and 5 double bonds) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA, 22 carbons and 6 double bonds).

    So since fish oil contains more carbons and double-bonds than flaxseed oil (ALA-based), that means fish oil is the most unstable of all! No WONDER fish goes bad so fast. Do you really want to consume this isolated oil that's been in the back of a hot truck and under bright lights on a shelf at room temperature all day? HELL NO, NOT ME! My opinion.

    Omega 6
    Linoleic acid (18 carbons, 2 double bonds) is the shortest-chained n−6 fatty acid found in plants.
    That breaks down into animal-based arachidonic acid (20 carbons, 4 double bonds) in the human body.

    Isn't it funny that generally foods with higher omega 6 spoil faster?

    Beef can be eaten rare and can sit out on the counter for a few hours at room temp. Its PUFA is low.
    Pork can be eaten medium. It has a moderate PUFA level.
    Chicken has to be well-done. It has a high PUFA level for an animal.
    Fish is mostly PUFA and goes bad very, very quickly.

    Just remember to store all your PUFA's in the refrigerator or freezer. I refrigerate all my nuts. I don't let them sit out. Especially flax. If you have flax (for some awful reason, it tastes terrible and I see no benefit to consumption) keep it in the FREEZER and for God's sake DON'T BAKE WITH IT. That's the industrial method for making varnish.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  9. #9
    Ribbons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    Polyunsaturated fats have been shown to lower cholesterol. However, that's total cholesterol, and it typically drops at the expense of HDL. If you want to drop your total cholesterol, which is an arbitrary number, at the expense of HDL, that would be misguided. While total may drop, often your ratio of HDL:LDL and HDL:triglycerides degrade. On another note, while eating a diet high in saturated fat and low in polyunsaturated fat typically increases cholesterol, it's because you are seeing a sharp rise in protective HDL and ratios improve significantly.

    Another thing you have to recognize is that there is more than one type of polyunsaturate fat. Omega 6 polyunsaturated fats found in animal products is primarily arachidonic acid - while it is pro-inflammatory, the entire healing process that the body relies on depends on inflammation. Without arachidonic acid, you cannot heal appropriately. While ruminant meat seems to be the most beneficial, that doesn't mean eating chicken is going to kill you because it has more polyunsaturated fat. It is primarily arachidonic acid.

    Plant-based omega 6 polyunsaturated fat is linoleic acid. This is where the problem comes in. Soybean oil, canola oil, cottonseed oil - this is linoleic acid. It is inflammatory and not really necessary like arachidonic acid. Nuts are high in linoleic acid, but I'm not going to sit here and tell you that nuts = soybean oil. That is a ridiculous assessment. You can eat nuts, but treat them as a condiment/topping and not a dietary staple. You shouldn't be snacking on nuts every single day, but if you're tossing some on a salad or having an occasional handful, you'll be okay. If your biggest indulgence is some dark chocolate and a handful of pecans you're way ahead of the game.

    Omega 3 is even dicier. Omega 3's are more unstable than omega 6's, so it's even more important to focus on quality here. Flax, hemp, chai, walnuts and other plant sources of omega 3's contain ALA-based omega 3, which is mostly useless by the human body. It has to be converted to EPA/DHA, and the processes are very inefficient, especially for men. I would recommend NOT eating flax, hemp and other omega 3's from plants. They're incredibly unstable, and please do NOT bake with them. I'm less concerned about walnuts because they're a whole food, but always, enjoy in moderation and not as a staple food.

    Omega 3's from animals (like fish) is the EPA/DHA that scientists say we "need". I don't know if I believe that, but I'd much rather eat animal-based omega 3's than plant-based omega 3's.

    I still don't care for a high PUFA diet. It seems to be pro-inflammatory. I refuse to take fish oil. IMO, if fish oil makes you feel better, that is a huge issue because you're so inflamed that it's actually helping. IMO, the ideal diet is a low PUFA diet. FWIW, omega 3 is "linolenic" acid, not to be confused with "linoleic" acid mentioned above, which is a plant-based omega 6.

    Got all that? Me neither.

    Polyunsaturated fat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Breakdown:

    Omega 3's

    α-linolenic acid (ALA) = parent omega 3, largely plant-based (18 carbons, 3 double bonds), highly unstable.
    Breaks down (inefficiently) in the human body into animal-based eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA, 20 carbons and 5 double bonds) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA, 22 carbons and 6 double bonds).

    So since fish oil contains more carbons and double-bonds than flaxseed oil (ALA-based), that means fish oil is the most unstable of all! No WONDER fish goes bad so fast. Do you really want to consume this isolated oil that's been in the back of a hot truck and under bright lights on a shelf at room temperature all day? HELL NO, NOT ME! My opinion.

    Omega 6
    Linoleic acid (18 carbons, 2 double bonds) is the shortest-chained n−6 fatty acid found in plants.
    That breaks down into animal-based arachidonic acid (20 carbons, 4 double bonds) in the human body.

    Isn't it funny that generally foods with higher omega 6 spoil faster?

    Beef can be eaten rare and can sit out on the counter for a few hours at room temp. Its PUFA is low.
    Pork can be eaten medium. It has a moderate PUFA level.
    Chicken has to be well-done. It has a high PUFA level for an animal.
    Fish is mostly PUFA and goes bad very, very quickly.

    Just remember to store all your PUFA's in the refrigerator or freezer. I refrigerate all my nuts. I don't let them sit out. Especially flax. If you have flax (for some awful reason, it tastes terrible and I see no benefit to consumption) keep it in the FREEZER and for God's sake DON'T BAKE WITH IT. That's the industrial method for making varnish.
    Good info

  10. #10
    Fletch666's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimhensen View Post
    You didn't even read that link you posted, did you? Or if you did, you completely misunderstood it. It says:

    "Industrial canola oil for deep-fat frying contains 27% trans fat."

    Then it links to this as the source:

    Nutrition Facts and Analysis for Oil, vegetable, industrial, canola (partially hydrogenated) oil for deep fat frying

    Which is the nutrition facts for: Oil, vegetable, industrial, canola (partially hydrogenated) oil for deep fat frying

    I am pretty sure after the trans fats scare a few years ago almost all fast food places stopped using hydrogenated oils for deep frying, so it really isn't an issue unless you go to one of the few restaurants still using hydrogenated oils. KFC, Mcdonalds, and Burger king have all eliminated hydrogenated oils.
    Crap. Guilty of misremembering. I read that a while back and didn't double check before posting. Ah well.

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