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Thread: Primal Women - did cave girls really exercise as much as men? page 6

  1. #51
    Figlio di Moros's Avatar
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    Primal Fuel
    Noodle, kind've hard to ignore someone who works right next to you, and you're forced to interract w/

    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Forager View Post
    I agree with most of what you say but I think we need to look at who benefits most from women entering the labor market, it obviously isn't the average worker because we agree that the more workers there are the lower the wages will be. If you follow the money I don't think it is going to lead you to rich feminists, but that's just my opinion.
    I agree, corporations benefit materially, but you're reducing the whole of human interactions to that. Corporations simply couldn't force women into the workforce on their own, or even possess the ability to think to convince them. Feminists had to lay the groundwork, and they benefit by feeling vindicated in their own theories and worldviews. There's both a bit of shadenfreude and delerium for a Professor to be convinced they liberated women by sending them to call centers.

    Quote Originally Posted by cori93437 View Post
    House hold chores are mostly mind numbing. Seriously. That's why the least educated people in our culture are paid to do those tasks.
    Like daycare attendents, or teachers? I'm not arguing that being a maid is a fulfilling career, but that people prefer to spend time with their family.

    Spending time with kids only at the exclusion of adult company, as many women experience much of their time at home can also be a bit mind numbing. This is particularly true if they decide to be stay home moms and lack a rich husband so that they can run about at their whims to play dates and not ever think of costs. There is something to be said for having actual intelligent adult conversation. This doesn't happen with a 3 year old.
    And, yet, Zoe points out women are choosing to stay home anyways, very often getting involved in helping one another out. Having more money helps, but you still have family(I hope)- Perhaps I should point out, I'm also in favor of the extended family model over the nuclear model. I know y'all probably don't come from the same family background, but I imagine finding groups, if you don't have that family or friend network to rely on, can easily work as well.

    Whether or not being a homemaker is fulfilling, either as fulfilling as or more fulfilling than, a professional job is up to the individual to decide. Not for a third party to decide via sweeping generalizations. A woman's choices about career are her own. If she finds a 'menial' job in a book store or waitressing to be enjoyable that is HER decision. If she decided to go to college and get a doctorate and work in a laboratory or hospital, that is also up to her. Those are HER decisions.
    Who said I was deciding anything? I generalized; go figure, with 52% of the population being female, I'd choose not to account for every single individual exception. If women decide, it's one thing. Where I disagree is, 1) in encouraging women to work instead of being housewives, and 2) the fact women are often forced to work by the material realities of their households. Hell, we've ben discussing two-income families, but let's not forget the other dynamic- single-parent homes. That's even tougher when wages require two working parents, to get enough money and raise a kid. Unlike housewives or SAHDs, single-parents don't have the option of staying home; however, in a single-income economy, they'd atleast have the option of not working three jobs to make ends meet.

    If what you're discussing is the freedom to work as you choose, then how can you ignore the material concerns that force women to work when they don't, or work far more than they want?

    Quote Originally Posted by zoebird View Post
    I think that most women are returning home because they find value in it.

    I gave it a good try. I thought that I would find being a SAHM and unschooling my kid to be super fulfilling. I didn't. I found it to be tedious and then exhausting. Tedious because there wasn't enough to do (living simply/minimally means less to clean and pick up, and I'm not crafty or interested in home improvements or gardening or keeping chickens), and then exhausting because DS's social needs are very high, and going to all of those things and socializing with those other families (women, men, children) was exhausting (i'm an introvert).

    Which means what? It meant that I would be bored out of my mind while at home, then conversely absolutely freaked out when I wasn't. And usually, the other moms were talking about their cooking/cleaning/crafting/chicken-keeping, and I was just like . . . "i'm so not into these things." Not that I don't think those things are *super-awesome* but it's not my deal. Other moms are mom-activists. . . doing a lot of things like really getting involved in mother/baby stuff (baby wearing advocacy groups, breastfeeding advocacy groups; natural parenting/free ranging advocacy groups; educational advocacy groups; groups that help moms join advocacy groups). All of that stuff is also *super* valuable, but honestly, not to my interest. I mean, I am glad that I did the things that I did as a mom, and that I had those groups to go to and get help, support, and answers when I needed. But once my boy was out of diapers, I saw no reason to head to the "potty babies" group, or once he was weaned, going to the breast feeding group. Yes, I remember how to do it and can help people do it and whatever, BUT it's definitely not a *passion* of mine, you know?

    So, I went back to my passion: I went back to work.

    Once I started teaching yoga again, I was excited to get up in the morning. Yes, I still kept house, took care of baby, didn't keep chickens or do crafting, and I seriously cut-back on the amount of socializing I did so that I wouldn't overwhelm myself. And, I started working. I love it.

    And then I started this bigger business, which I love doing in the extreme. I love cultivating it. I love doing the accounting. I love cleaning the carpets. I love teaching my teachers for free (as part of our professional development to better the studio). I love every aspect of the work.

    I still clean the house and take care of my kid (though, as I said, my husband does the majority of this labor right now).

    i don't feel at all forced. I don't feel like I'm doing it because it's the feminist thing to do or not to do. I do it because I enjoy it, and doing so helps me be a happier, more authentic person, which in turn, teaches my son to be a happier, more authentic person.
    I'm not sure what business you work on, but teaching yoga's a bit unjobbed anyways, isn't it? My mom did something similar when I was growing up; she ran a daycare out of the house. Work? Technically, though not exactly the same "talking to adults" factor you'd get from teaching yoga.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rueben View Post
    Your piss-poor, unrealistic description of staying home and looking after kids makes me angry - Your attitude makes women feel guilty because they don't want to be at home full time. Not me - I realise what I'm good at - and its not staying at home.
    If they feel guilty, it's their fault; it's sure as hell a lot better than giving them unrealistic impressions and false hope in the working world. Do you feel better working? I'll take your word for it. The women I know in my own life? Usually stuck working at a call center(literally- sorry if I overuse the example). I don't doubt any of them would prefer staying home with the kids than having to go back there. That, or they're my coworkers, working 10 hr days on a repair line, barely able to support themselves- in which case, I know they'd rather be at home with the kids.

    Why don't you stay home at look after the kids full time and then you can come back and tell us how fun it is? Huh? LOL
    Because I'm a guy?

  2. #52
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    I agree, corporations benefit materially, but you're reducing the whole of human interactions to that. Corporations simply couldn't force women into the workforce on their own, or even possess the ability to think to convince them. Feminists had to lay the groundwork, and they benefit by feeling vindicated in their own theories and worldviews. There's both a bit of shadenfreude and delerium for a Professor to be convinced they liberated women by sending them to call centers.
    It's possible Feminists didn't for see how the labor market would use women entering the workforce to lower the standard of living for every one, but to say that these women are experiencing Schadenfreude is absurd. Schadenfruede is pleasure derived form the misfortune of others, what other's suffering would give these "Feminists" pleasure? To see other women suffer? They wouldn't be Feminists if they felt that way.

    As far as most work being mind numbing I have to agree with you there. In fact most people I know would rather not go to work, and those that are working in their chosen field wouldn't mind working if they could just do it a few hours a week.

    When it comes to staying at home I guess I am very lucky, perhaps it's because I live in area where there aren't many job opportunities so a lot of the stay at home moms I know are highly intelligent and either do not work outside the home or work very little. When we get together the topics range from civilization, structure of the English language, art, politics, math and physics. My husband never has such stimulating conversations at work.
    We are also all homeschooling or unschooling moms so it's possible we are a less conventional section of the population.
    Last edited by Urban Forager; 07-15-2012 at 10:08 AM.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Figlio di Moros View Post
    Like daycare attendents, or teachers? I'm not arguing that being a maid is a fulfilling career, but that people prefer to spend time with their family.

    Women who especially enjoy being with small children would probably LIKE to be day care attendants. Teaching covers a wide range of ages. I liked MY baby... not some much other peoples babies. I personally would NEVER want to teach the smalls... too much touching and bodily fluids. I worked in the middle and high school environment, where there are different challenges, but they keep their hands and snot off the teacher at least.
    Not everyone prefers to spend all day with their own family. Some people are driven rather nuts by it.
    Husband and I live alone together now as our son is grown. We don't send very much time together. We are both introverts and appreciate our own space. He works outside the home, and I stay home alone... so he invariably socializes more. If he was here with me all day every day I'd want a vacation from him... if we didn't already have our home set up so that we don't have to be near each other all the time.
    I know quite a lot of people who say similar things... they are glad to work because being together as a whole family ALL the time is too much. It's better when they have time apart.
    You really do overgeneralize.


    And, yet, Zoe points out women are choosing to stay home anyways, very often getting involved in helping one another out. Having more money helps, but you still have family(I hope)- Perhaps I should point out, I'm also in favor of the extended family model over the nuclear model. I know y'all probably don't come from the same family background, but I imagine finding groups, if you don't have that family or friend network to rely on, can easily work as well.

    And the choice to stay home is completely valid. However, not everyone is from a family where that would work. Many people live far from family, or have family members who are not trustworthy. As far as finding random people to to group with, some people do that. Others choose not to because they live in areas where few people share their own views of appropriate child rearing. The small town in TN that I'm from... I would never have any of them in my business or home. They'd be trying to Jesus my kid up on the sly. Seriously. And the best topics of conversation for them would be A.) Gossip B.) Gossip, or C.) Some awful reality show bullshit...
    At this point over generalization and idealization.
    It seems you have no actual experience with these issues.



    Because I'm a guy?
    Really.
    You CAN'T choose to stay home and be a homemaker because you have a penis?
    That's some really strange news for me to hear, considering that I actually know a couple of men who do just that.
    Wife works full time out of the home professionally with good pay and great benefits.
    Husband had a job that was less stable and well paid/compensated so he quit to stay home.
    It actually works beautifully for them.

    But guess what. The "complaints" that most women have about staying home are HIS complaints as well.
    The issues of scrubbing toilets, endlessly washing clothes, cooking, cleaning, and other tasks, along with lack of adult socialization plus too much child only contact are not based on the SEX of the person in the situation. They are based on the situation itself.
    Last edited by cori93437; 07-15-2012 at 10:25 AM.
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzylogic View Post
    Well....women can hunt and fight just fine. We only need a few men around on an intermittent basis to impregnate us, as most of a tribe doesn't need to be simultaneously pregnant and a batch of kids can be quite skillfully watched by one or two people: possibly elder people who can no longer hunt.

    I find most men stunningly useless. They can't or won't clean up after themselves, expect to be waited on and can't multitask for beans. They're just about useful for their penises, and most of them aren't particularly skilled there, either.....
    Misandry at it's finest.
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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Figlio di Moros View Post
    I'm not sure what business you work on, but teaching yoga's a bit unjobbed anyways, isn't it? My mom did something similar when I was growing up; she ran a daycare out of the house. Work? Technically, though not exactly the same "talking to adults" factor you'd get from teaching yoga.
    I don't really know. How are you defining terms?

    I teach yoga the way a physical therapist works. It's not a hobby. It's not something I do because someone else is supporting me. I teach yoga because it is a passion, and because I can help people feel better in their bodies, develop better health, etc. It involves a lot of technical knowledge and skills in teaching (how to teach, etc), all of which have to be cultivated. Being an introvert and yet leading classrooms isn't exactly the easiest task, but I do work on my social skills in order to improve what I offer to my clients.

    In addition, I now run a whole studio. This is no different than someone being the CEO of something. Yes, it is a small business, but I'm setting it up to be large. My average work weeks run between 35 and 60 hours a week, and in the coming weeks, I'll be working 15 days straight with my work (most of them long, full days). Part of that is going to Australia to teach business courses for yoga teachers and creatives, in addition to teaching yoga.

    In addition to simply maintaining offices (which certainly has it's own work requirements), I also maintain the marketing (my husband also does the work of this. I tend to create the strategies and generate the processes, and he executes on the branding, writing, etc of the process). In addition, I'm constantly interviewing potential people to join us, and also working with and mentoring and encouraging the people who are with us currently to develop their businesses for increased group success.

    For the yoga studio, I'm currently in the process of completing the renovations of the studio, as well as training some teachers and transitioning some classes over to them. It's a joy, but it takes time. We provide peer supervision (which I direct), and I provide teacher training to fill any gaps in their education and help them improve their teaching (usually based on what comes out of supervision). I also work on customer service and client retention practices with them, so that they can better understand those relationships -- how it relates to teaching and to business.

    Next weekend, we are gathering as a group of teachers to discuss the direction of the studio as a group, the shared vision that we have, and then also create a schedule and sequences for the classes (we have about 4 other kinds of classes outside of what I teach). This is a group effort -- sort of like a band creating an album, where the sum is greater than the parts -- but it's also something that is *not* done in our industry (just as supervision is not done in our industry).

    This will then allow me to change the sequences of the classes that I'm teaching, and then it's a 6-8 week process of transitioning a class to a new teacher -- this helps the students feel confident in the change, and in turn, we (and the new teacher) retain those clients, rather than those clients leaving that class and coming to my classes only (since they have a relationship with the teacher). I know it seems conservative or cautious, and many people may consider it "unnecessary" and that the students will find their way back to class or whatever, but I've just turned a class over, only to have a healthy class absolutely collapse (go from a healthy 10-15 students to 0-1 students over 2-3 weeks with a new teacher).

    Since I want to provide for those students (client focus), and I also want the teachers to stay motivated (they like having students), there needs to be a transition that will encourage all of them.

    I then have a weekend "off" and then I go back to work for another Monday to the following Friday because of the teaching in Australia -- which is my first foray into Australia, and I plan to teach there on-going. First, teaching business, and later teaching yoga as well. I'd like to do some teacher training, set up supervision groups, and teach these sorts of professional processes in teaching yoga (not just the yoga itself, but the teaching skills and the professionalism that needs to go along with it), and I'd like to franchise my business into australia (as well as into NZ).

    I'm also currently working on "satellite" classes from the studio. Our studio is downtown, but most women/children are in the suburbs. Women who work come to our studio; women who do not work and stay at home with their children (and dad's too. it's fairly common to have mom work and dad stay home), and they tend to stay in the "burbs" (which are no more than 20 minutes from downtown, but they rarely come downtown.

    We are developing a curriculum and marketing that will eventually be a license for people who are interested in the topic to pick up and teach in the burbs (or anywhere). it's an entire business model and process, and I'm developing a curriculum for pregnancy, post natal, yoga for kids/parents ages 1-2; ages 3-5; and then just kids ages 6-8, 8-10, 10-11; and then 12-14; and teen yoga.

    We start our first test class in ages 3-5 (to set the curriculum) this week, and then in October we'll start a 14+ class in the curriculum. I already have the pregnancy and post natal written up; and then my friend (who is an early childhood educator) is going to help create for ages 1-2, 6-8, 8-10, 10-11, and 12-14.

    This september, I'm teaching 5 teachers the ages 3-5 class and prenatal, and one of those teachers will be the test teacher for the 14+ group. We'll launch in 4-5 suburbs in Feb (when the school term starts), and I'm running this not under license, but an extension of the business itself (what we call our "on site" business, where we go into corporations and teach yoga classes).

    Once this is completely nailed down, I'll start transitioning it to a license -- so that anyone in any burb can come and get training, and get the license to teach the curriculum, utilize our branding for the marketing, and learn the process of running those classes.

    Does it sound like an "unjob?"

    The idea is for me to have a business that is large and creates opportunity for others, while also creating passive income for me. I strive to keep my administration down to about 5 hours a week, but these creative processes take some heavy lifting in the early parts. Which means working long hours now, but once something is "up and running" -- the administration swiftly decreases.

    And, then I can also continue to teach yoga classes/lessons (about 7-10 a week), and then also lead the teachers (supervision, training), and continue to develop the business side of things (training, licensing, franchising) so that the business can continue to grow.

    I guess if I made "widgets" it would seem more like a "masculine" business where people might consider it "drudgery." A friend of mine owns his own software company. He and his partner (a two-person business), work really diligently at their work, just as I do, and have plans to continue to grow their business. Would you consider their work an "unjob?"

    I don't know. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

    But, yes, I grant you -- it's not regular "office work" to earn a living. I worked in an office as an archivist, as a legal analyst, and a receptionist. I didn't care for the work -- but they were what I needed at the time (no contract was longer than 3 months, which was really all that I needed). I knew that I wanted to teach yoga, run my own studio. And when I started this business, I realized that I wanted to franchise it. It's a good idea -- a good method -- and it will allow other yoga teachers and holistic health practitioners to succeed in this kind of work, if that's what they want to do.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzylogic View Post
    Well....women can hunt and fight just fine. We only need a few men around on an intermittent basis to impregnate us, as most of a tribe doesn't need to be simultaneously pregnant and a batch of kids can be quite skillfully watched by one or two people: possibly elder people who can no longer hunt.

    I find most men stunningly useless. They can't or won't clean up after themselves, expect to be waited on and can't multitask for beans. They're just about useful for their penises, and most of them aren't particularly skilled there, either.....
    ...And this is the meme that I was talking about earlier. This kind of language would be absolutely unacceptable if it was used in reference to women by men. It's also completely untrue, of course, as are most blatant stereotypes. But it's par for the course today to talk about men in a similar way to how men used to talk about women a few decades past--they're stupid, incapable, "only good for" X or Y, need to stay in their place, and let their betters handle grown-up things. Never mind that men are in fact people who are just as complex, diverse and competent as women (albeit sometimes in different ways), and that this kind of attitude is just as unjust and discriminatory as the attitudes held by white society against blacks in the 20th century and before, or by male society against women in the same period.

    I could just as easily say that I find most women stunningly useless. They can't or won't keep accurate track of their finances, expect men to provide for all their material needs, and break down at the slightest hint of external resistance or difficulty. They're just about useful for their vaginas, but most of them expect men to do all the work there, too. Of course, all of that would be just as untrue and unfair as what you wrote--that is to say, completely, inasmuch as it can reasonably apply to individuals and not to entire groups distinguished only by their genitalia.

    Also, I find the idea that a typical group of women would be able to defend themselves against a similarly-armed group of men in primitive/hand-to-hand combat completely laughable. With guns, sure, assuming equal training and skill (although even then, in close quarters men will have the advantage as soon as distance is closed), but with fists, knives and spears? Please. Don't be ridiculous. You've obviously never been in a physical altercation with a bigger, faster and stronger opponent if you don't understand what a crushing advantage 30-50 pounds of lean mass and several inches of height and reach can provide.

    Quote Originally Posted by Figlio di Moros View Post
    Possibly, but then again, there was much more large-game during the last Ice Age. It's possible hunting was far more effecient then, providing much more meat than large game today.
    True, and it may be that the behavior become prevalent in those times, then adapted to a new role more recently due to less profusion of megafauna. My thoughts were mostly in reaction to reading synopses of studies that purported to show that in modern HG societies, foraging and small game hunting/trapping brings in many more net calories per capita than large game hunting.
    Today I will: Eat food, not poison. Plan for success, not settle for failure. Live my real life, not a virtual one. Move and grow, not sit and die.

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