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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forgotmylastusername View Post
    Someone said the Italians eat plenty of wheat and you replied "No they don't but when they do it's full of fat".
    New Guinea and Massa tribes, Kitavans, lots of asian populations and basically any culture that ate 60% + carbohydrate before westernization.
    Had a bit of a scout around on Italy & life expectancy, seems central & northern Italy fare much better (6-7 years) than southern Italy and the main dietary differences are that northerners eat more meat & animal fats, polenta, rice and less pasta (wheat), olive oil, fruit & Veg from what I can find, and in addition their overall diet is vastly different to what is percieved as Italian food in the US, and there is a "slow food" policy at meals which reduces overconsumption.

    While I was looking at this, it struck me that life expectancy is irrelevant unless it is taken into context, the individuals that are setting the life expectancy data were conceived, born and hit puberty before WWII and this is the time that the foundations for their future health was set. There is plenty of information out there indicating that this process starts at conception and generational health is passed down through maternal nutrition, one example being Okinawan centarians outliving their children and in some cases grandchildren.
    As for the other cultures you mentioned, I don't think any of them knew what wheat was.
    Diet plays a significant role in health, but there are a lot of other factors that also play key roles.
    Inuit & Massai were virtually 100% animal foods, can't name them, but there were others that were 95% plant foods, mind you it was likely that this was not by choice, more likely like the Hunza, a case of scarcity, some ate grains others didn't, and theres an entire spectrum of diets between these, so with all the information available to you, take the best guess of what will be best for you.

    Our bodies have multiple back up systems that overlap in their duties, when one system is overloaded, other systems step in and shoulder the load, most of the time you will not be aware that anything is wrong, because these are only supposed to be temporary failures, if this condition is maintained for an extended period, eventually you experience the failure as expressed by a chronic health problem, when this happens all the walls come down.
    Most people are surprised when they are suddenly confronted with this, but it's not sudden at all, it can take 20, 30 or even 40 years of abuse, can a doctor cure you in a month or year, no, it may well take 10, 20 or 30 years of care to rebuild your health or it may not ever recover.

    So if you read all the information available to you and think wheat & gluten is safe for you and you have no ill effects from eating it, then put your money on the table, eat the bread and pasta and see if your bet yields a positive or negative return.
    Last edited by Omni; 07-13-2012 at 10:39 PM.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forgotmylastusername View Post
    Someone said the Italians eat plenty of wheat and you replied "No they don't but when they do it's full of fat".
    New Guinea and Massa tribes, Kitavans, lots of asian populations and basically any culture that ate 60% + carbohydrate before westernization.
    Again you are making things up - I said less than our current North American consumption. Someone found a 1999 study of wheat consumption showing the French ate more, since then I have found the 2012 where France and Italy don't even make the top 14 consumers. If you use 6040 metric tonnes for France (but it is less) and crunch the population numbers France is now eating less than the US so I was right.

    Lets see so low fat means they consume 60% carbs or more - nuances was your word was it?

    I guess you are basing the asian populations on the China Study which has been completely debunked? My understanding the Asian diet is all over the place with regards to fat and a lot depends where they live. Some cultures eat lots of fatty pork and ocean fish are full of oil.
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  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirlot View Post
    Again you are making things up - I said less than our current North American consumption. Someone found a 1999 study of wheat consumption showing the French ate more, since then I have found the 2012 where France and Italy don't even make the top 14 consumers. If you use 6040 metric tonnes for France (but it is less) and crunch the population numbers France is now eating less than the US so I was right.

    Lets see so low fat means they consume 60% carbs or more - nuances was your word was it?

    I guess you are basing the asian populations on the China Study which has been completely debunked? My understanding the Asian diet is all over the place with regards to fat and a lot depends where they live. Some cultures eat lots of fatty pork and ocean fish are full of oil.
    I have an honest question, would a 1999 or 2012 study be more relevant in this discussion? I ask because I assume that when we discuss longevity, we are talking about cultures as they have lived, not as they will live. We have no idea if the current lifestyle of any of our cultures is good or bad (though we can make assumptions) and we won't know until the results play out. However, we can look at the current populations and their health and see what correlates. (Which is all we can see, we can't actually pull out any facts.) When people talk about okinawans, nobody is talking about how their young people eat now.

    Anyways, I feel I got off course. My point was simply that I am not a "blame wheat for everything" type of person and I truly believe it can be a part of a healthy diet for MOST people. The main links I see to healthy longevity are genetics, eating less protein (plant and animal), being active, overall caloric restriction, getting daily sunlight, and having a good family base. These are all conclusions I have drawn, but they are all CORRELATIONS and could be completely wrong.

    I eat no wheat in my normal life. On my last vacation, I ate probably 5 or 6 servings of wheat at fine restaurants. I had no ill effects and still lost a pound on my vacation. (By IFing the days I knew I was going to have a big dinner.) The reason I exclude wheat normally is that I am prone to over-consume wheat products, not because I believe wheat (especially in moderate doses to non-allergic people) is toxic.

  4. #124
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    1999, 2012 both are valid given the changes we are saying. However lifestyle would be a much bigger factor I would think. Along with the type of foods, processed oils, prepackaged foods, low fat crap are so much worse. Although I do think the amount of wheat, and wheat products found in so many foods is a huge issues.

    I am the same with you, I have no issues with wheat. And I have said before if given a rich homemade dessert I would take a please - thank you portion. If in France I would treat myself to an almond croissant.

    Wheat products are easy to over consume. Eating primal is a much better way to deal with everyday eating, better taste, more nutrients and fewer weight swings.
    Last edited by Dirlot; 07-14-2012 at 08:51 AM.
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  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omni View Post
    Had a bit of a scout around on Italy & life expectancy, seems central & northern Italy fare much better (6-7 years) than southern Italy and the main dietary differences are that northerners eat more meat & animal fats, polenta, rice and less pasta (wheat), olive oil, fruit & Veg from what I can find, and in addition their overall diet is vastly different to what is percieved as Italian food in the US, and there is a "slow food" policy at meals which reduces overconsumption.

    While I was looking at this, it struck me that life expectancy is irrelevant unless it is taken into context, the individuals that are setting the life expectancy data were conceived, born and hit puberty before WWII and this is the time that the foundations for their future health was set. There is plenty of information out there indicating that this process starts at conception and generational health is passed down through maternal nutrition, one example being Okinawan centarians outliving their children and in some cases grandchildren.
    As for the other cultures you mentioned, I don't think any of them knew what wheat was.
    Diet plays a significant role in health, but there are a lot of other factors that also play key roles.
    Inuit & Massai were virtually 100% animal foods, can't name them, but there were others that were 95% plant foods, mind you it was likely that this was not by choice, more likely like the Hunza, a case of scarcity, some ate grains others didn't, and theres an entire spectrum of diets between these, so with all the information available to you, take the best guess of what will be best for you.

    Our bodies have multiple back up systems that overlap in their duties, when one system is overloaded, other systems step in and shoulder the load, most of the time you will not be aware that anything is wrong, because these are only supposed to be temporary failures, if this condition is maintained for an extended period, eventually you experience the failure as expressed by a chronic health problem, when this happens all the walls come down.
    Most people are surprised when they are suddenly confronted with this, but it's not sudden at all, it can take 20, 30 or even 40 years of abuse, can a doctor cure you in a month or year, no, it may well take 10, 20 or 30 years of care to rebuild your health or it may not ever recover.

    So if you read all the information available to you and think wheat & gluten is safe for you and you have no ill effects from eating it, then put your money on the table, eat the bread and pasta and see if your bet yields a positive or negative return.
    Yeah, I think we (as people who are mainly interested in diet/nutrition) tend to assume everything to do with health is diet related when there's so many other of facets involved. The socioeconomic/healthcare/living conditions/crime rate/work conditions/unemployment and living conditions are generally worse in the south. The cultures I referred to weren't examples of wheat consumers they were just a few examples of some of the hundreds of cultures who have survived on low fat diets, some even subsisting on extremely low-fat diets and still thriving. Which apparently some believe do not exist. In general populations found closer to the equator had a preference towards plants/fruit/starch heavy diets. On the other hand you had humans on the other side of the world thriving on primarily animal food based diets. No one can deny humans can do well on both diets. As far as gambling with your health eating gluten. Well, I consume barely any gluten but even if I did it could be considered a gamble like any other dietary lifestyle WOE which basically all have some downsides.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dirlot View Post
    Again you are making things up - I said less than our current North American consumption. Someone found a 1999 study of wheat consumption showing the French ate more, since then I have found the 2012 where France and Italy don't even make the top 14 consumers. If you use 6040 metric tonnes for France (but it is less) and crunch the population numbers France is now eating less than the US so I was right.
    lol. That shows how many tonnes are consumed per nation. Did you even take into account the US population is about 5x larger than that of Italy or france. The fact is wheat is a an important part of Italian cuisine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dirlot View Post
    Lets see so low fat means they consume 60% carbs or more - nuances was your word was it?
    .
    The ADA and multiple other organisations define Low-fat is defined as 30% or less of calorie intake. Some cultures have even been found to consume carb intakes higher than 80% on average.
    I guess you are basing the asian populations on the China Study which has been completely debunked? My understanding the Asian diet is all over the place with regards to fat and a lot depends where they live. Some cultures eat lots of fatty pork and ocean fish are full of oil.[/QUOTE]
    Never even read the China study. Some asian populations have an average very low fat percentage others are more moderate. If you really don't believe people have thrived on low fat and even very low fat diets than I really don't know what to say.
    Last edited by Forgotmylastusername; 07-15-2012 at 04:40 AM.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forgotmylastusername View Post
    Lol. That shows how many tonnes are consumed per nation. Did you even take into account the US population is about 5x larger than that of Italy or france. The fact is wheat is a an important part of Italian cuisine.
    OMFG did you even read what I wrote....I said throw in the population and crank the number ffs... or are you going to make up something else I have said

    You want to eat crap and go through yo-yo fat gains go for it. You want to eat grains and have yo-yo fat gains (which your post seem to indicate you do) go for it, You want to believe wheat is good for you go for. You want to eat wheat go for it but ffs if you are going to respond 3x and misquote me 3x then ...well that says it all. You dont want to eat primal go for it.

    Wheat does not affect me but I am here to eat clean and enjoy life...you want to ignore the studies that show how bad gluten is then hold hands with jim and have fun....cause neither you nor him have posted a single study to show that grains are good for you.

    PS
    You are the one who quoted asian diet as a low fat one, funny how you backtrack.
    Last edited by Dirlot; 07-14-2012 at 09:23 PM.
    Eating primal is not a diet, it is a way of life.
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  7. #127
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    http://www.fao.org/docrep/006/y4011e/y4011e04.htm

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirlot View Post
    OMFG did you even read what I wrote....I said throw in the population and crank the number ffs... or are you going to make up something else I have said
    I missed the crank the numbers part. Though I would tend to take statistics as to what the French or Italian diet has been over the last few decades as their past and current health statistics have less to do with what they are consuming today, what they have consumed over the last 40 years is more relevant to the research done on their health status. A report from the FAO in the has wheat consumption of both countries much higher than the US per capita. Higher in Italy and much higher and France.Wheat in the world - B.C. Curtis
    Btw, you're hardly one to be castrating other for mis-reading things.
    http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread60977.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirlot View Post
    You want to eat crap and go through yo-yo fat gains go for it. You want to eat grains and have yo-yo fat gains (which your post seem to indicate you do) go for it, You want to believe wheat is good for you go for. You want to eat wheat go for it but ffs if you are going to respond 3x and misquote me 3x then ...well that says it all. You dont want to eat primal go for it.
    I do eat primal and I eat very little crap food. I hardly call maintaining between 8% - 10% bf "yo-yo fat gains"
    Quote Originally Posted by Dirlot View Post
    Wheat does not affect me but I am here to eat clean and enjoy life...you want to ignore the studies that show how bad gluten is then hold hands with jim and have fun....cause neither you nor him have posted a single study to show that grains are good for you.
    I don't have dogmatic black and white views on foods like grains like you seem to hold by labeling them "poison". Very few foods besides the obvious can be put into a "good" or "bad" category. I at least try to approach things with an open mind and acknowledge things like context, dosage and individuality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirlot View Post
    PS
    You are the one who quoted asian diet as a low fat one, funny how you backtrack.
    huh? Asia is a continent made up of dozens of different countries and cultures, you can't lump them in one category. Many Asian countries like I said, subsist on low fat diets and are in fantastic health. You seem to be unwilling to concede this for some reason.
    Last edited by Forgotmylastusername; 07-15-2012 at 04:47 AM.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forgotmylastusername View Post
    I don't have dogmatic black and white views on foods like grains like you seem to hold by labeling them "poison". Very few foods besides the obvious can be put into a "good" or "bad" category. I at least try to approach things with an open mind and acknowledge things like context, dosage and individuality.
    Seeing as you seem to have come to the surface as the defender of wheat.
    As far as all the consumption data goes, there are obviously too many variables to take into account unless we are dedicated enough to spend years trying to piece it together. I looked at the same thing, different source earlier today, mine had Italy as a higher intake than France, both higher than US, the biggest consumers seem to be North Africa, Middle East & Central Asia, which would kind of be expected as that is the region where it was first cultivated. Anyway, point is like I said earlier, there is a significant difference in both wheat consumption, & life expectancy between Northern & Southern Italy, the northerners are also wealthier, so is it money or not eating wheat that lets them live longer. Or like the French, I believe they also eat more saturated fats, does this help protect them from their high wheat consumption, what other factors may be involved.

    You say you don't eat much Gluten, so I assume that also means limited wheat.
    Are you prepared to put it on the line?
    Most others say don't have it in the house & ok to have on the odd occassion socially.
    What is your recommended daily wheat intake & in what form as a safe guideline for individuals who may want to eat it.

    And from your quote above what foods do you put into the "Obvious Bad" category?
    likewise which ones are "Obvious Good"?, then assuming everything in between must be in the "Handle with Care" category.

    There are a number of individuals, like yourself supporting wheat intake, so I'd like to hear from anyone else as well what the acceptable quantifiable intake is.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omni View Post
    Seeing as you seem to have come to the surface as the defender of wheat.
    As far as all the consumption data goes, there are obviously too many variables to take into account unless we are dedicated enough to spend years trying to piece it together. I looked at the same thing, different source earlier today, mine had Italy as a higher intake than France, both higher than US, the biggest consumers seem to be North Africa, Middle East & Central Asia, which would kind of be expected as that is the region where it was first cultivated. Anyway, point is like I said earlier, there is a significant difference in both wheat consumption, & life expectancy between Northern & Southern Italy, the northerners are also wealthier, so is it money or not eating wheat that lets them live longer. Or like the French, I believe they also eat more saturated fats, does this help protect them from their high wheat consumption, what other factors may be involved.

    You say you don't eat much Gluten, so I assume that also means limited wheat.
    Are you prepared to put it on the line?
    Most others say don't have it in the house & ok to have on the odd occassion socially.
    What is your recommended daily wheat intake & in what form as a safe guideline for individuals who may want to eat it.

    And from your quote above what foods do you put into the "Obvious Bad" category?
    likewise which ones are "Obvious Good"?, then assuming everything in between must be in the "Handle with Care" category.

    There are a number of individuals, like yourself supporting wheat intake, so I'd like to hear from anyone else as well what the acceptable quantifiable intake is.
    I don't see myself as a defender of wheat. I'm just not a fan of the hyperbole and certainty some seem to have towards issues that obviously aren't so black and white. The differences in life expectancy between the north and south are likely to explained by a whole host of reasons. Diet, public health, physical work, access to medicine, life stressors, environmental factors, drugs/alcohol, pollution and more all probably play a role to some degree. In a lot of countries the upper class tend to have a significant higher life expectancy.

    My regular diet doesn't consist of any wheat or gluten besides a few bowls of homemade muesli a week, which contain about 1oz of rolled oats and a bunch of nuts, coconut, dried apples, apricots, bananas, cinnamon etc. Foods I consider bad are the ones generally accepted as bad like nutritionally void cakes and pastries made with refined flour, sugar, hydrogenated oils and preservatives. Classing foods that are obviously good is a little more tricky because all people have their individual tolerances, there's people allergic or have low tolerances to all kinds of foods. As far as my personal wheat recommendations I don't have a set acceptable quantifiable limit, you couldn't set an across the board recommendation for any food without taking into account context and individuality. Some unlucky folks are even extremely sensitive to amines and salycilites which seem to be in almost everything.

  10. #130
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    I am trying to find some resolution in these wheat discussions that seem to go nowhere.

    You say refined flower is nutritionally void and is obviusly bad food from your previous statement.
    That kills off over 90% (maybe 95%+) of wheat based foods, as even most of the so called "wholegrain" products only contain the essence of whole grain.

    Now you can't go on about how it's not that bad, then not have a place for it in the ideal diet structure.
    The USDA has a food Pyramid that basically says 60% calories from wheat is healthy.
    The Paleo/Primal food Pyramid basically says less than 1% (social) calories is acceptable consumption of wheat.

    There is always going to be exceptions with food allergies etc., but for the general population, including yourself.
    Mind you, your abscence of wheat consumption doesn't support the cause either,
    Yes you may find a Vegan who will argue in support of a Paleo lifestyle, but the argument loses impetus if there is no personal commitment.

    You have got to be able to put it somewhere in there and in what form,
    Is only whole grain, heirloom varieties, low gluten, organically grown wheat acceptable as a food product and what % calories should it contribute to a healthy diet?

    Without a firm commitment your argument is baseless,
    i.e. Wheat is safe to eat as food, but I can't tell you how much is safe to eat.

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