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Thread: Dr. Mcdougall rips apart the paleo diet - your thoughts? page 8

  1. #71
    orielwen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moochy View Post
    Regarding the destruction of the planet due to food production: WHY does no one, vegan or omnivore ever realize the destruction of the planet is because there are too many people? People have bred like a plague of rats and no one wants to acknowledge that.
    I think a lot of people do realise it. The trouble is that that doesn't actually get us anywhere. Unless you advocate some sort of extermination protocol, there's no immediate practical solution that comes from saying 'there are too many people'.

    Me, I believe the long-term answer is in education, particularly of women (who then take control of their lives, and have fewer children), increasing people's quality of life in general (because when they know they don't need lots of kids for extra labour, and they know their kids aren't (usually) going to die, they have fewer kids), and increasing the availability of reliable contraception.

    But in the meantime, for at least a couple more generations we have a lot of mouths to feed, not to mention an economic system built on the assumption of infinite population growth. And that's the immediate problem we need to deal with.

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dracil View Post
    I was watching Going Tribal recently and saw the reverse actually happen with a nomadic tribe as they were migrating. They dug up the squirrel's tubers cache and stole it.

    Dairy products was big with these nomadic tribes herding their hundreds of animals (horses, cattle, goats, and sheep)

    (This was in Mongolia)

    Sure they could steal a cache... but they had to find it.
    It's not like having an all access pass to foods through out the year.
    Tubers stores go bad at a certain point in the year... they rot, or begin to grow again, thus cutting consumption off for a time.
    For early man to forage more than he could consume for a few days at best and safely store it, without attracting other animals, is just unlikely.

    Dairy is neolithic... not paleo. I'm sure that's why you deleted all of that though.

    Also... Lewis' post --"stable isotope analysis on bone shows that these people were eating at the top of the food chain, actually similar to an Arctic fox."
    The scientific analysis shows that early humans were eating mostly animal products.
    Last edited by cori93437; 07-05-2012 at 11:57 AM.
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
    ~Friedrich Nietzsche
    And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.


  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by cori93437 View Post
    Sure they could steal a cache... but they had to find it.
    It's not like having an all access pass to foods through out the year.
    Tubers stores go bad at a certain point in the year... they rot, or begin to grow again, thus cutting consumption off for a time.
    For early man to forage more than he could consume for a few days at best and safely store it, without attracting other animals, is just unlikely.

    Dairy is neolithic... not paleo. I'm sure that's why you deleted all of that though.

    Also... Lewis' post --"stable isotope analysis on bone shows that these people were eating at the top of the food chain, actually similar to an Arctic fox."
    The scientific analysis shows that early humans were eating mostly animal products.
    What did I delete?

    Paleo isn't about reenactment. Supplements are neolithic. They're still widely recommended in paleo circles. Robb Wolf eats dairy. Neolithic != automatically bad. Eat according to your genetic adaptation.

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dracil View Post
    What did I delete?

    Paleo isn't about reenactment. Supplements are neolithic. They're still widely recommended in paleo circles. Robb Wolf eats dairy. Neolithic != automatically bad. Eat according to your genetic adaptation.
    In your response you had deleted the dairy bit... but my reply caught it before it was gone... or you added it after I started to reply. I went back and it its there again.
    The first time the post appeared only the first line was visible... but when I hit reply I could see it had been altered.

    I'm quite aware of the fact that eating Paleo is not a "reenactment"... but in a conversation where the diet of paleolithic man is being discussed you are dragging in unnecessary stuff by adding in neolithic practices. I drink some raw milk myself.
    And the conversation was most definitely about the availability of foods to paleolithic hunter gatherers, thus most of human evolution, and the extent to which these humans had access to starchy foods (ie. not that much... certainly not year round and in great abundance which seems to be the assertions of some people).
    Last edited by cori93437; 07-05-2012 at 01:54 PM.
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
    ~Friedrich Nietzsche
    And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.


  5. #75
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    Yea, I too 'read everything' before deciding. I then got pissed at all the conflicting information, tossed it all away, and now I 'doeswhatfeelsgood'... which - for me - is Paleo. A few years ago, I did Atkins - and hurt myself in the process. If you do not eat enough fruit or vegetable matter, your "meat intake" will sit solidly in your intestines for a LONG painful time. I had to quit after four months and a LOT of Metamucil.

    I would say - pound for pound - I eat WAY more veggies than I do meat, and the tubes-'r-happy.

    I did McDougal many years ago - and GAINED weight. Go figger.

    Not having read his words, my guess is that he's made some seriously large assumptions about what Primal eating is actually all about, lumping all folks who eschew grains and sweets as being terribly terribly misinformed. ESPECIALLY after the FDA report recently. <sigh - that WAS a sarcastic comment.>

    Do what works for YOUR body. Throw all the books and lectures and reports away. Experiment along healthy, fresh, and organic if possible, and eventually you'll find that you're feeling, sleeping, exercising better.

    What more do you need?
    Last edited by RedFalcon; 07-05-2012 at 01:57 PM.

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by cori93437 View Post
    I'm quite aware of that... but in a conversation where the diet of paleolithic man is being discussed you are dragging in unnecessary stuff by adding in neolithic practices. I drink some raw milk myself.
    And the conversation was most definitely about the availability of foods to paleolithic hunter gatherers and the extent to which man had access to starchy foods (ie. not that much... certainly not year round and in great abundance)
    Right, we were talking about hunter gatherers weren't we? I don't believe there are any paleolithic hunter gatherers around anymore from which we can observe. Now there are still modern hunter gatherers, of which these tribal people are probably the best we can examine at the moment for techniques and methods of survival.

    Now, it was brought up we can look at bones and stuff. Can we actually tell from that they absolutely did not drink dairy 20000+ years ago? I'd think paleolithic eating was probably based on "eat anything and everything that didn't immediately make you sick or dead and prevent you from getting your next meal"

    Also, see Invalid Inference 1 from What Science Really Says About the Paleo Diet – With Mat Lalonde

  7. #77
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    Because using some common sense and knowing that plants produce their vegetation, roots, tubers, and fruits/berries seasonally is just so far off the reservation.
    My only assertion was that starchy roots and tubers were very unlikely to be the mainstay for all hunter gather societies based on rational thinking... seasons, regional differences, storage problems, etc.... because someone had asserted that starches were the base of the diet rather than a fluctuating seasonal diet based on meat and foraged proteins.
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
    ~Friedrich Nietzsche
    And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.


  8. #78
    Dracil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cori93437 View Post
    Because using some common sense and knowing that plants produce their vegetation, roots, tubers, and fruits/berries seasonally is just so far off the reservation.
    My only assertion was that starchy roots and tubers were very unlikely to be the mainstay for all of hunter gather societies based on rational thinking... seasons, regional differences, storage problems, etc.
    Which itself is in a sense, a flawed way to think about it if we're basing it on current climate/regional conditions since that itself has changed drastically over the millennia.

    I don't think anyone claimed starchy tubers were common in all hunter gatherers anyway (maybe someone did, I skimmed, but the mere existence of Inuits makes that unlikely to begin with).

    Some good reading on paleolithic starch, esp. the first one.

    http://paleohacks.com/questions/9958...w-come-so-many
    http://paleohacks.com/questions/7975...eo/79785#79785
    http://paleohacks.com/questions/8424...and-vegetables
    Last edited by Dracil; 07-05-2012 at 02:16 PM.

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by orielwen View Post
    I think a lot of people do realise it. The trouble is that that doesn't actually get us anywhere. Unless you advocate some sort of extermination protocol, there's no immediate practical solution that comes from saying 'there are too many people'.

    Me, I believe the long-term answer is in education, particularly of women (who then take control of their lives, and have fewer children), increasing people's quality of life in general (because when they know they don't need lots of kids for extra labour, and they know their kids aren't (usually) going to die, they have fewer kids), and increasing the availability of reliable contraception.

    But in the meantime, for at least a couple more generations we have a lot of mouths to feed, not to mention an economic system built on the assumption of infinite population growth. And that's the immediate problem we need to deal with.

    Doesn't matter what I or you think about overpopulation...eventually the planet will "burp" humans off the planet entirely or greatly diminish their number and go along it's way through time and space.
    Primal/Paleo is not for everyone, it's for those who have committed to understand.
    READ THE BOOK! ...as Robb Wolf says: "Trying to convince people to save their own ass will burn you out."

    Vegetarians are the enemy of everything good and decent in the human spirit, and an affront to all I stand for -- the pure enjoyment of food.” Anthony Bourdain

    and yes, calories DO count my little piggies

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