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  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by fitmom View Post
    Science can help us understand WHY people feel better grain-free.
    Nonsense, you are speaking as if everyone has Celiac disease. Even in the United States, roughly 90+% do not have this intolerance and a comparable amount have allergies to seafood. If I had a seafood intolerance and came in here preaching about the dangers of salmon consumption and how everyone should ditch it for health reasons, would you think I was out of my mind?

    The fact is that the majority of the world consumes ample grains as a staple of the diet; including the longest living, arguably healthiest, societies in the world.

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirlot View Post
    Careful with the GMO label...we are not their yet. It has been irradiated, cross bread and more but the strict definition of GMO is adding or removing a gene in the lab. A splitting hairs technicality but it is strictly not GMO.
    Corn is GMO with insecticide which we ingest but even worse the insects are developing resistance to which could ruin the corn crop.
    Got news for you~ it's all Round-up Ready. Corn, wheat, soybeans, all other grain crops, even sweet corn now. Have farmers in the family. Want to know something else? If the farmer doesn't buy Round-up ready seed from the seed salesman, he can't sell his crop. Because the salesman reports to the grain elevator who bought from him and the farmers that don't get their crop blackballed.

    It's a much bigger than you think!
    Last edited by Nady; 07-02-2012 at 11:39 AM.

  3. #73
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    @ StackingPlates

    I wasn't actually "calling you out". I didn't even realize I was replying directly to you. The point that the known percent of people sensitive to gluten (this is without considering any other issues with wheat) continues to rise. Started at 1% have ciliacs....then its up to 10% have measurable gluten intolerance....then we discuss GMO hybridization, GI, and essentially crowding out better nutrient sources. I believe there have also been many correlations (I know not causation) epidemiological studies showing that as wheat consumption increases health gets worse. I would have to go back through and find these, but I'm not THAT interested in this debate. I've decided if I want a grain rice is good nuff for me.

    I will leave it that wheat may not be a problem for everyone. Its fairly obvious that traditional preparation of non-GMO modified wheat is a whole different animal than the crap we find in the store. But, it is also obvious that many people who are sensitive to wheat will not know it until it is too late....i.e. autoimmune or other gut pathology ensues. What is the percent of these people? I don't know for sure, but I think its likely to be far more than 10% and only time (and better techniques to evaluate this "pathology") will tell.

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by StackingPlates View Post
    Nonsense, you are speaking as if everyone has Celiac disease. Even in the United States, roughly 90+% do not have this intolerance and a comparable amount have allergies to seafood. If I had a seafood intolerance and came in here preaching about the dangers of salmon consumption and how everyone should ditch it for health reasons, would you think I was out of my mind?

    The fact is that the majority of the world consumes ample grains as a staple of the diet; including the longest living, arguably healthiest, societies in the world.
    Not entirely as cut and dried as that... autoimmune response to grains is not limited to Celiac... new research is showing links to other disease as well. No I don't have the links saved to post here but I've read them... some real connection is being made between grain consumption and several other autoimmune related illnesses.
    You don't have to be "Celiac" and Celiac only to be impacted by grains.
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
    ~Friedrich Nietzsche
    And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.


  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimhensen View Post
    I applaud your research. But I will point out that Americans don't eat "unleavened wholemeal wheat bread that is the main dietary staple of the villagers" for the most part. So this isn't really an issue.
    Perhaps "unleavened wholemeal wheat bread" isn't the dietary staple as it is in Iran, but a large number of non-primal folks do eat flatbreads, pitas, flour tortillas, or leavened/yeast bread with every meal. If I recall, yeast has little effect on the phytate content of a bread, but fermentation does (sourdough). So, being unleavened isn't really the issue.

    However, the more bran in a bread, the more phytate - so whole grain versions (you know, the healthy ones!) would contain more phytates than a heavily refined white bread. Hmm, there was a study on that, might have to find that one. Anyway, my point is that the indications to eat whole grains at every meal (toast with your breakfast! Sandwich for lunch! Whole wheat pasta for dinner!) may be very problematic for those susceptible to iron, calcium, or magnesium deficiencies.
    Jen, former Midwesterner, living in the middle of nowhere.

  6. #76
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    I don't give a shit if people want to be vegan or vegetarian. Why do they always try to convince me how to eat? Oh, yeah. Because they are missing crucial nutrients and the saturated fats necessary for cell integrity and brain & cognitive health.

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by StackingPlates View Post
    Nonsense, you are speaking as if everyone has Celiac disease. Even in the United States, roughly 90+% do not have this intolerance and a comparable amount have allergies to seafood. If I had a seafood intolerance and came in here preaching about the dangers of salmon consumption and how everyone should ditch it for health reasons, would you think I was out of my mind?

    The fact is that the majority of the world consumes ample grains as a staple of the diet; including the longest living, arguably healthiest, societies in the world.
    Incorrect. You're equating Celiac with being an allergy. An allergy is MUCH more severe than an intolerance. An allergy to seafood is, "grab an EpiPen before you die". Celiac is neither, rather it's an autoimmune disease and is severely under diagnosed in the United States. Further, more and more researchers are starting to link the risk of developing Celiac Disease with those that contain 1 of, if not both of 2 genes (DQ2 and DQ8). Roughly 35-40% of Americans have one of the two. Having them doesn't mean that you are Celiac, but it does mean that you are at risk. 95% of Celiac's have DQ2 and 5% have DQ8. What researchers do know is that if you don't consume Gluten, it's a non-issue.

    Further, the rate of Celiac has doubled basically every 15 years since 1974. It must just be something magical happening that has nothing to do with damaged guts being passed down from generation to generation with increasing severity. And yes, when parent's of Celiac's are looked at, they almost always have damaged guts as well.

    If you kids want to love your pseudo science and eat your grains, go for it. But I don't understand the point of arguing that on here? It's merely trolling. I didn't need science or blood tests to confirm what I already knew, that consuming gluten made me feel horrible and eliminating it doesn't. A friends of mine's sister tested negative for Celiac, but cut it out of her diet anyway due to IBS (at the recommendation of her doctor non-the-less).

    Studies say coffee and wine have health benefits and I don't consume either. I do consume rice, amaranth and quinoa which are more nutritiously dense than wheat anyway.

    I could type more, but it would be utterly pointless. The only point is mind your own business.
    Last edited by Catharsis; 07-02-2012 at 11:50 AM.

  8. #78
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    From the data on "China Study"

    "So if you don’t want to take my word for it, take the word of this peer-reviewed paper: The China Study data showed no correlation between cholesterol and heart disease, but did find wheat and polyunsaturated fats to be mighty suspect."

    That is from here One Year Later: The China Study, Revisited and Re-Bashed « Raw Food SOS

    In fact just read and follow the studies in that whole post for a host of data correlating wheat with poor health.
    Last edited by Neckhammer; 07-02-2012 at 11:54 AM.

  9. #79
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    From here: Erythrocyte fatty acids, plasma lipids, and cardiovascular disease in rural China by Fan Wenxun, Robert Parker, Banoo Parpia, Qu Yinsheng, Patricia Cassano, Michael Crawford, Julius Leyton, Jean Tian, Li Junyao, Chen Junshi, and T. Colin Campbell.

    You get this "The consumption of wheat flour and salt (the latter measured by a computed index of salt intake and urinary sodium excretion) was positively correlated with all three diseases [cardiovascular disease, hypertensive heart disease, and stroke]."

  10. #80
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    @ Catharsis - Great post until you let personal emotion seep in, was enjoying it to that point.

    @ Neckhammer - Are you really citing "The China Study"? I believe OP asked for non epidemiological studies. I could just as easily cite the same type of studies as proof that they aren't bad (think Asian cultures that thrive on them). Examples

    Williams, P. G. (2012), Evaluation of the evidence between consumption of refined grains and health outcomes. Nutrition Reviews, 70: 80–99. doi: 10.1111/j.1753-4887.2011.00452.x

    Not causal but one of the more thorough dissections of available literature...

    This review evaluates the available evidence on the relationship between consumption of refined grains and health outcomes. A total of 135 relevant articles were identified from database searches of studies published between 2000 and 2010. The great majority found no associations between the intake of refined-grain foods and cardiovascular disease, diabetes, weight gain, or overall mortality. A few studies found that very high intakes might be associated with some types of cancers, but at moderate levels of consumption the risks were not significant. The totality of evidence shows that consumption of up to 50% of all grain foods as refined-grain foods (without high levels of added fat, sugar, or sodium) is not associated with any increased disease risk. Nonetheless, eating more whole-grain foods remains an important health recommendation, and most consumers will need to reduce their current consumption of refined grains to no more than one-third to one-half of all grains in order to meet the targets for whole-grain foods.

    I'm not sure where all the studies you guys are alluding to are but they must not have been published during the time this review was conducted...
    Last edited by StackingPlates; 07-02-2012 at 12:04 PM.

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