Why does Danny Roddy recommend sugar to reduce stress/estrogen? page 63

[Richard Seekins]

Just a minor correction, it's "Paleo".

Understand your point, can get a bit serious at times, but sometimes you got to scratch the surface to see what's really under there.

Thanks for the correction, my fingers don't always do what my head says

Anyway, 63 pages in and I see no conclusion to any of this.

I feel the only option is install your own BS filter and go with what works for you. A great deal of this is unproven science, and often as not you need to take at least a small leap of faith with things.

However its good to keep an open mind too.

[Zach]

You are missing the point,
Lactate is an integral part of our metabolic process, it is produced by a wide variety of cells and used by a wide variety of cells under all conditions even when at absolute rest with no stressful demands of the body.

It provides a unique mechanism of energy distribution within the body where muscles under high load such as intense prolonged running, these can be powered with a mix of aerobic and anaerobic metabolism and not be restricted by blood oxygen supply, the excess lactate is transported away by the blood to other organs and muscles under low load where it is oxidised and hence completing the aerobic metabolism pathway. Hence it is an adaptive mechanism that allows us to run faster for longer by allowing the rest of our body which is under low load to support our leg muscles under high load, this may also tie in to the bipedalism argument which underpins our success as a species.

There is no way, no matter what you try to do you can not stop or prevent this process, it really is sounding very much like the type of rationale as was used in the cholesterol myth, as neckhammer said "corrolation is not causation" just because lactate levels increase under stressful conditions does not in any way implicate lactate in the cause, it is instead one of the body's mechanisms to simply deal with the stressful state.
Although Warburg and Bohr did make usefull contributions to our knowledge base, the recent thinking on lactate is completely reversed, it is merely a symptom and not the cause, so attacking lactate is no different to most modern medicine protocols of just treating the symptom.

For those interested here's just a couple of more recent articles on lactate for an overview:
The Lactic Acid Myths - Competitor.com
Lactate-uptake mechanism may fuel the injured brain | Research
Lactic Acid & Blood Lactate

I think that is his point exactly. Noone is saying lactate is the cause, its one sign of a stressful environment. The Ray Peat diet only tries to minimize these stressful actions.

J3nn, a higher sugar diet first and foremost. Also keeping PUFA to a bare minimum.

[dannyroddy]

There is no way, no matter what you try to do you can not stop or prevent this process, it really is sounding very much like the type of rationale as was used in the cholesterol myth, as neckhammer said "corrolation is not causation" just because lactate levels increase under stressful conditions does not in any way implicate lactate in the cause, it is instead one of the body's mechanisms to simply deal with the stressful state.

Brother Omni, again, I'm not saying that lactic acid is "the cause" of stress. Please read my previous comments.

I look at problems as a disorder of energy metabolism.

The most basic substrates for energy production are oxygen and glucose. In the presence of carbon dioxide, we can produce ATP, CO2, water, and hydrogen through our highly evolved oxidative metabolism.

If the mitochondria are defective, or carbon dioxide isn't around, the cells produce a type of primitive energy through glycolysis, which provides less ATP, less CO2, and more lactic acid.

Excess lactic acid, by suppressing oxidation of glucose, increases oxidation of fats, further suppressing the glucose oxidation.

Thyroid hormone, progesterone, pregnenolone, DHEA, gelatin, calcium, magnesium, sodium, fructose, aspirin, copper, caffeine, etc. support oxidative energy.

PUFA, iron, estrogen, serotonin, adrenaline, glucagon, cortisol, prolactin, parathyroid hormone, aldosterone, etc. promote energy through glycolysis.

[dannyroddy]

Danny, can you share with us what you believe to be the best ways to increase CO2? Thanks!

I have been prone to water retention for over a decade now and I'm wondering if there's a connection.

I think active thyroid hormone (triiodothyronine or T3) is the main factor.

[Omni]

Brother Omni, again, I'm not saying that lactic acid is "the cause" of stress. Please read my previous comments.

I look at problems as a disorder of energy metabolism.

The most basic substrates for energy production are oxygen and glucose. In the presence of carbon dioxide, we can produce ATP, CO2, water, and hydrogen through our highly evolved oxidative metabolism.

If the mitochondria are defective, or carbon dioxide isn't around, the cells produce a type of primitive energy through glycolysis, which provides less ATP, less CO2, and more lactic acid.

Excess lactic acid, by suppressing oxidation of glucose, increases oxidation of fats, further suppressing the glucose oxidation.

Thyroid hormone, progesterone, pregnenolone, DHEA, gelatin, calcium, magnesium, sodium, fructose, aspirin, copper, caffeine, etc. support oxidative energy.

PUFA, iron, estrogen, serotonin, adrenaline, glucagon, cortisol, prolactin, parathyroid hormone, aldosterone, etc. promote energy through glycolysis.

Your language betrays you though,

"primitive energy through glycolysis"
"our highly evolved oxidative metabolism"

Nature doesn't really concern herself with artificial Human overlays, primative or highly evolved, the only thing that counts is whether the mechanism is capable of withstanding the rigors of natural selection and in this case both have been incorporated into human metabolism as a successful adaptation to the environment.

"The whole is greater than the sum of it's parts"

The entire metabolic process both aerobic & anaerobic, carbohydrates & fats, proteins, minerals, co factors, hormones work in syncronicity to provide the most successful outcome, hence we are still here.

To try and isolate any of these as the one and only or the best is simply the same approach as allopathic medicine.
I did read one of your documents on the net this morning and you clearly referred to Lactic acid as a toxin, but everything in our bodies is a toxin at the wrong levels, lactate is no more a toxin than is glucose, insulin, CO2, O2, silicon, copper, iron etc., etc.

You have your own hypothesis that you have drawn from your research and experience, but they are still only hypothesis, you may have had some practical success in applying your methods via these models, all good, I have no issue with that.

What I do have issue with is misinformation and disinformation, intentional or not, if you want to describe lactate or any other compound as a toxin or harmful, then place it in an appropriate context, at what levels under which conditions etc.

You seem to fail to recognise and accept that Lactate is present and being produced in our bodies constantly, even with ample O2 & CO2 levels, it is a completely natural and essential part of our metabolism.
Without it we would likely fall into a screaming heap.

The one thing I have learned in this process is we really know very little about how the Human Body operates, we poke and prod and observe responses and create visual models to describe these reactions, but there are other responses that we aren't even aware of, so it is foolish in my eyes to be too definative about cause and effect outcomes within the body.
Leptin was only discovered less than 20 years ago and is being talked about as a master hormone, yet still very little is really known about it, how many other compounds and processes remain to be discovered within the body?

The smartest thing Donald Rumpsfeld ever said:

There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know.
There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know.
But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.

The way George W ran into the Iraq war, was simply based on the first line, along with some outright lies, the way thet they have left Iraq now is the last line, and that is the danger of treating the human body with the idea that we know fully what is going on.

[Derpamix]

Certain mechanisms exist in our body, and are produced for the sole sake of emergency response. When these mechanisms are elevated too much, or continuously, they cause cell wide degeneration. Stress in response to life is a natural process.

Also about lactic acid and co2:

Pasteur effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Omni]

That's what I want answered in absolute terms not vague biased descriptions.
What level of Lactate and under what conditions is it detrimental, how do we identify this effect clearly without access to a full metabolic ward and not use a vague combination of symptoms that can be attributed to a plethora of different conditions.
And yes I do know about the absulute states of acidosis requiring hospitalisation, what I want to know is how someone just not feeling quite right must have an elevated lactate issue.

Lactate can not be just a detrimental stress response if it is present in our bodies 24/7, walking, sleeping, laughing, crying, farting, running, meditating or even sitting on the toilet, Red blood cells have no choice, they have to produce lactate (no mitochondria) our body is tuned to use lactate.
What about the fast and slow glycolysis taking place in the cytoplasm of all cells, this is the first stage of aerobic, if we are in low gear then glucose goes to pyruvate which then enters the mitochondria, if we need to sprint then lactate is produced, oxygen supply takes 30sec or more to catch up, hence no glycolysis, no running, lion eats you.

It's just plain and simple, Lactate is there, has always been there and is meant to be there,
When is it an issue and how do you determine lactate is the problem conclusively?

[dannyroddy]

Your language betrays you though,

"primitive energy through glycolysis"
"our highly evolved oxidative metabolism"

Nature doesn't really concern herself with artificial Human overlays, primative or highly evolved, the only thing that counts is whether the mechanism is capable of withstanding the rigors of natural selection and in this case both have been incorporated into human metabolism as a successful adaptation to the environment.

"The whole is greater than the sum of it's parts"

The entire metabolic process both aerobic & anaerobic, carbohydrates & fats, proteins, minerals, co factors, hormones work in syncronicity to provide the most successful outcome, hence we are still here.

To try and isolate any of these as the one and only or the best is simply the same approach as allopathic medicine.
I did read one of your documents on the net this morning and you clearly referred to Lactic acid as a toxin, but everything in our bodies is a toxin at the wrong levels, lactate is no more a toxin than is glucose, insulin, CO2, O2, silicon, copper, iron etc., etc.

You have your own hypothesis that you have drawn from your research and experience, but they are still only hypothesis, you may have had some practical success in applying your methods via these models, all good, I have no issue with that.

What I do have issue with is misinformation and disinformation, intentional or not, if you want to describe lactate or any other compound as a toxin or harmful, then place it in an appropriate context, at what levels under which conditions etc.

You seem to fail to recognise and accept that Lactate is present and being produced in our bodies constantly, even with ample O2 & CO2 levels, it is a completely natural and essential part of our metabolism.
Without it we would likely fall into a screaming heap.

The one thing I have learned in this process is we really know very little about how the Human Body operates, we poke and prod and observe responses and create visual models to describe these reactions, but there are other responses that we aren't even aware of, so it is foolish in my eyes to be too definative about cause and effect outcomes within the body.
Leptin was only discovered less than 20 years ago and is being talked about as a master hormone, yet still very little is really known about it, how many other compounds and processes remain to be discovered within the body?

The smartest thing Donald Rumpsfeld ever said:


The way George W ran into the Iraq war, was simply based on the first line, along with some outright lies, the way thet they have left Iraq now is the last line, and that is the danger of treating the human body with the idea that we know fully what is going on.

I'm speechless Omni, your responses are an exercise in semantics.

I'm not sure if you've read through the thread, but none of what you're writing is relevant to what I'm talking about.

I've provided my context several times throughout this thread: problems are a disorder of energy metabolism.

Glycolysis is very inefficient for producing usable energy compared to the respiratory metabolism of the mitochondria, and when lactate is carried to the liver, its conversion to glucose adds to the energy drain on the organism (i.e., hepatic glycogen is an important factor in resisting maladaptation to stress).

When I say glycolysis, I mean the entry of lactate into the blood stream inappropriately, which would usually be called aerobic glycolysis. You can't be sure how much oxygen is getting to the cells when CO2 is deficient, since its absence causes many problems in oxygen delivery and use.

Thyroid status, calcium, sodium, copper, vitamin A, etc. all influence the cell's production of carbon dioxide and lactic acid. You can measure both of these on routine labs your doctor runs.