Anyway, 63 pages in and I see no conclusion to any of this.
I feel the only option is install your own BS filter and go with what works for you. A great deal of this is unproven science, and often as not you need to take at least a small leap of faith with things.
However its good to keep an open mind too.
Caution! My replies may contain traces of nuts!. My posts are just my opinion based on my experience with the primal way of life, there is no assurance it will work with others in the same way.
Started Primal 15th October 2012
Start weight 200lb
Loss so far 33.8lbs, now 166.2lb
Goal was 168lb's
I look at problems as a disorder of energy metabolism.
The most basic substrates for energy production are oxygen and glucose. In the presence of carbon dioxide, we can produce ATP, CO2, water, and hydrogen through our highly evolved oxidative metabolism.
If the mitochondria are defective, or carbon dioxide isn't around, the cells produce a type of primitive energy through glycolysis, which provides less ATP, less CO2, and more lactic acid.
Excess lactic acid, by suppressing oxidation of glucose, increases oxidation of fats, further suppressing the glucose oxidation.
Thyroid hormone, progesterone, pregnenolone, DHEA, gelatin, calcium, magnesium, sodium, fructose, aspirin, copper, caffeine, etc. support oxidative energy.
PUFA, iron, estrogen, serotonin, adrenaline, glucagon, cortisol, prolactin, parathyroid hormone, aldosterone, etc. promote energy through glycolysis.
"primitive energy through glycolysis"
"our highly evolved oxidative metabolism"
Nature doesn't really concern herself with artificial Human overlays, primative or highly evolved, the only thing that counts is whether the mechanism is capable of withstanding the rigors of natural selection and in this case both have been incorporated into human metabolism as a successful adaptation to the environment.
"The whole is greater than the sum of it's parts"
The entire metabolic process both aerobic & anaerobic, carbohydrates & fats, proteins, minerals, co factors, hormones work in syncronicity to provide the most successful outcome, hence we are still here.
To try and isolate any of these as the one and only or the best is simply the same approach as allopathic medicine.
I did read one of your documents on the net this morning and you clearly referred to Lactic acid as a toxin, but everything in our bodies is a toxin at the wrong levels, lactate is no more a toxin than is glucose, insulin, CO2, O2, silicon, copper, iron etc., etc.
You have your own hypothesis that you have drawn from your research and experience, but they are still only hypothesis, you may have had some practical success in applying your methods via these models, all good, I have no issue with that.
What I do have issue with is misinformation and disinformation, intentional or not, if you want to describe lactate or any other compound as a toxin or harmful, then place it in an appropriate context, at what levels under which conditions etc.
You seem to fail to recognise and accept that Lactate is present and being produced in our bodies constantly, even with ample O2 & CO2 levels, it is a completely natural and essential part of our metabolism.
Without it we would likely fall into a screaming heap.
The one thing I have learned in this process is we really know very little about how the Human Body operates, we poke and prod and observe responses and create visual models to describe these reactions, but there are other responses that we aren't even aware of, so it is foolish in my eyes to be too definative about cause and effect outcomes within the body.
Leptin was only discovered less than 20 years ago and is being talked about as a master hormone, yet still very little is really known about it, how many other compounds and processes remain to be discovered within the body?
The smartest thing Donald Rumpsfeld ever said:
The way George W ran into the Iraq war, was simply based on the first line, along with some outright lies, the way thet they have left Iraq now is the last line, and that is the danger of treating the human body with the idea that we know fully what is going on.There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know.
There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know.
But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.
Last edited by Omni; 03-13-2013 at 08:48 PM.
Certain mechanisms exist in our body, and are produced for the sole sake of emergency response. When these mechanisms are elevated too much, or continuously, they cause cell wide degeneration. Stress in response to life is a natural process.
Also about lactic acid and co2:
Pasteur effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
That's what I want answered in absolute terms not vague biased descriptions.
What level of Lactate and under what conditions is it detrimental, how do we identify this effect clearly without access to a full metabolic ward and not use a vague combination of symptoms that can be attributed to a plethora of different conditions.
And yes I do know about the absulute states of acidosis requiring hospitalisation, what I want to know is how someone just not feeling quite right must have an elevated lactate issue.
Lactate can not be just a detrimental stress response if it is present in our bodies 24/7, walking, sleeping, laughing, crying, farting, running, meditating or even sitting on the toilet, Red blood cells have no choice, they have to produce lactate (no mitochondria) our body is tuned to use lactate.
What about the fast and slow glycolysis taking place in the cytoplasm of all cells, this is the first stage of aerobic, if we are in low gear then glucose goes to pyruvate which then enters the mitochondria, if we need to sprint then lactate is produced, oxygen supply takes 30sec or more to catch up, hence no glycolysis, no running, lion eats you.
It's just plain and simple, Lactate is there, has always been there and is meant to be there,
When is it an issue and how do you determine lactate is the problem conclusively?
I'm not sure if you've read through the thread, but none of what you're writing is relevant to what I'm talking about.
I've provided my context several times throughout this thread: problems are a disorder of energy metabolism.
Glycolysis is very inefficient for producing usable energy compared to the respiratory metabolism of the mitochondria, and when lactate is carried to the liver, its conversion to glucose adds to the energy drain on the organism (i.e., hepatic glycogen is an important factor in resisting maladaptation to stress).
When I say glycolysis, I mean the entry of lactate into the blood stream inappropriately, which would usually be called aerobic glycolysis. You can't be sure how much oxygen is getting to the cells when CO2 is deficient, since its absence causes many problems in oxygen delivery and use.
Thyroid status, calcium, sodium, copper, vitamin A, etc. all influence the cell's production of carbon dioxide and lactic acid. You can measure both of these on routine labs your doctor runs.
Did your dad have his cortisol, adrenaline, estrogen, ACTH, growth hormone, or free fatty acids measured before he was "diagnosed" as diabetic?
Who has these tests run, and what doctors actually run these before diagnosing someone with diabetes? Are you saying all these tests should be routinely run before an accurate diagnosis of diabetes can be made? What is your backround?
The life I have today is far better than I deserve.......
M, 56, 6'0
SW - 192
CW - 175
GW - 165-170
Current addiction: ice cream (and sugar in general).....doing battle with it!