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Thread: Why does Danny Roddy recommend sugar to reduce stress/estrogen? page 59

  1. #581
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    I think what Danny Roddy and Ray Peat mean by stress is a systematic, acute or chronic reduction in the abily to meet energy demands at the required rate. There a number of contexts that can lead to this state in the organism. One could interact with a substance in a way that directly impairs the "clean" energy production mechanisms like eating PUFAs or one could chronically over train, over think or over do any activity to the point where the "clean" energy production systems fail to meet demands. In this case a switch over to an "emegency" energy system would take place. The critical distinction between "clean" and "emergency" enegy production mechanisms is the byprocucts that they produce. The "clean" produces CO2 and the "emergency" produces lactic acid. CO2 is favorable to lactic acid because its concentrations are easily managad by breathing and it has positive affects at the cellular level. Lactic acid on the other hand needs to be transported to the liver where it may further have a negative affect by reducing the livers glycogen stores. And unlike CO2 its harmfull in most context at the cellular level due to its role in inflemation. If the thyroid hormones conversion by the liver to its more active form is considired, from here it can be seen that the "emergency" system at least through an indirect pathway inhibits the "clean" energy metabolism. Becuase without adequate thyroid and the proper balance of thyroid hormones, the "clean" energy system does not work. In essense, the "emergency" system is a long term stressor in and of it self. It is possible that chronic PUFA consumption, and physical, cognive and emotional over excertion has over time impaired the "clean" energy production method. Therefore your father produces greater ammounts of lactic acid instead to CO2 when consuming carbohydrates. That is why eliminating them may have reduced his lactic acid load and improved his health. But that does not mean that the underlying metabolic issue is fixed. By adopting an indefinate carbohydrate restriction he is effectively managing it. I am not a medicaly or achademically trained person and I am sure that people on both sides of the argument will find many logical inconsistencies in what I wrote but I just wanted to express my understanding of the whole issue I hope it will lead to further discussion to refine my understanding.

  2. #582
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    I put her on ignore and got through the thread a lot quicker, and in a better mood. Can't stand the sarcasm myself. I do like to read around a range of opinions, and there is lots of interesting debate here.

    Quote Originally Posted by RubyRed View Post
    I was really glad to find this discussion, because I've read both Danny's blog thoroughly, as well as Mark's, and a bit of Peat. (And, a crapload of other studies and blogs about athletes, lifting, carbs, protein, etc.) I have a lot of questions about these things and I appreciate Danny coming over to participate in the discussion in a level-headed manner.

    I'm only 11 pages into what is currently a 58 page discussion and I finally have to speak up and say that what's really annoying is having to dig past the vitriol and scarcasm put out by Palobird (and a few others who are on her coattails). It's as if you're taking this personally and letting it get to you. I don't get it. It's unnecessary drama. No one is telling you how to live your life. Do what you want. If low-carb works for you, great.

    Not long ago, I too was screaming about the evils of all sugar. I was looking down my nose at my friends who eat sugar but have full heads of hair. Guess what, my average body temp is 96, I've got definite signs of hypothyroidism and issues with staying warm enough. I'm having a really hard time justifying putting carbs back into my diet, so reading some intelligent and thoughtful information is what I'm looking for, not another screaming match.

    Maybe by page 58 Paleobird gets banned from the discussion or begins to come around. Either way, I'm starting to tune out the shrill screaming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brookesam View Post
    I haven't read through this whole thread but I've noticed that I use as much and sometimes more insulin on VLC vs 70-150ish carbs. I have type 1 diabetes and use an insulin pump so I can see my daily totals.
    Likely too much protein, it requires insulin as well. High fat, moderate protein and low carb should reduce insulin needs.

  4. #584
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    Quote Originally Posted by AshleyL View Post
    Likely too much protein, it requires insulin as well. High fat, moderate protein and low carb should reduce insulin needs.
    Protein was much lower than my usual, I tried to keep it in the 80-95 gram range. My usual was and is around 120-130. Thanks though

  5. #585
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    Quote Originally Posted by brookesam View Post
    Protein was much lower than my usual, I tried to keep it in the 80-95 gram range. My usual was and is around 120-130. Thanks though
    Ketogenic diets cause physiological insulin resistance. Chris Kresser explains it briefly here:

    One caveat here is that very low-carb diets will produce elevated fasting blood glucose levels. Why? Because low-carb diets induce insulin resistance. Restricting carbohydrates produces a natural drop in insulin levels, which in turn activates hormone sensitive lipase. Fat tissue is then broken down, and non-esterified fatty acids (a.k.a. “free fatty acids” or NEFA) are released into the bloodstream. These NEFA are taken up by the muscles, which use them as fuel. And since the muscle’s needs for fuel has been met, it decreases sensitivity to insulin. You can read more about this at Hyperlipid.

    Why your “normal” blood sugar isn’t normal (Part 2)
    If you want the detailed breakdown, I embedded the link to a lengthy post at Hyperlipid.

    The short answer is regular spikes in blood sugar with healthy carbohydrate sources, especially starches, keeps you insulin sensitive. If you avoid high GI carbohydrate sources for too long, your body becomes insulin resistant just like avoiding a certain physical activity for a long period decreases your conditioning at that physical activity. Imagine going from running 5 miles every day - you'd probably be pretty darn good at it - and then take 6 entire weeks off where you did no running at all. If you started to pick it up again, you'd be moving at a much slower pace...or maybe barely even finish.

    This is often why a lot of times people on ketogenic diets "add carbs" then feel awful. They've made themselves insulin resistant, so suddenly piling on starch shocks their body with a reaction they can no longer efficiently process. You should use more insulin on a very low carbohydrate diet - you're insulin resistant, so you need more to do the same amount of work.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  6. #586
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    Ketogenic diets cause physiological insulin resistance. Chris Kresser explains it briefly here:
    Mr. Taco - I hope you read this and aren't just doing 'hit and run' replies...

    OK, Back in my SAD days, big, ol' fat me was pre-diabetic. I went whole hog PB. low carb, and lost a ton of weight. My FBG on SAD was 120. On LC PB, it got down to about 90 within a few months, but crept up to 110 over two years.

    Doing some self-experimentation with potatoes and a blood glucose monitor, I found my FBG would be highest very early in the morning, then slowly lower itself until I ate at 1130am.

    So at 6am, it would be 110, 1130am 90. I'd eat a LC lunch and my BG would be around 130 right after eating, lowering to 90 within an hour.

    Eating 1 pound of white potato on an empty stomach would result in a BG spike up to 180, then back down to 90 within 2-3 hours, sometimes I'd even hit hypoglycemic territory in the 60's before stabilizing in 90's. That was while eating LC normally.

    So, since Jan 1st, I have been eating approx 1 pound of starch a day (potatoes, sweet potatoes, plantains, and/or rice).

    I hadn't checked my FBG for a while, but after 4 weeks of adding starch, I checked. FBG was 120!

    Specifically, 6am - 120; 8am - 110, 10am - 105, 12am - 100.

    I ate a lunch consisting of 1/2 pound of potato, sour cream, 1/2 pound of salmon, and some green veggies: BG spiked to 160, then dropped over 2 hours to 100 and was 95 at 3 hours.

    Here's my take on all this:

    I was insulin resistant to start from my SAD days, LC helped me to lose weight, but never addressed the underlying issue of insulin resistance. I'm hoping this will self-correct as an FBG of 120 is way too high.

    What's your take?

  7. #587
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    Quote Originally Posted by otzi View Post
    OK, Back in my SAD days, big, ol' fat me was pre-diabetic. I went whole hog PB. low carb, and lost a ton of weight. My FBG on SAD was 120. On LC PB, it got down to about 90 within a few months, but crept up to 110 over two years.

    Doing some self-experimentation with potatoes and a blood glucose monitor, I found my FBG would be highest very early in the morning, then slowly lower itself until I ate at 1130am.

    So at 6am, it would be 110, 1130am 90. I'd eat a LC lunch and my BG would be around 130 right after eating, lowering to 90 within an hour.
    This is fairly consistent with the "carb backloading" model found pretty consistently throughout the body building community. Typically, insulin sensitivity increases during the evening and carbohydrate is best avoided in the morning and consumed at your final meal of the day closest to bedtime (it also helps you sleep). While your numbers are very high for fasting blood sugar, the model seems about right.

    Quote Originally Posted by otzi View Post
    Eating 1 pound of white potato on an empty stomach would result in a BG spike up to 180, then back down to 90 within 2-3 hours, sometimes I'd even hit hypoglycemic territory in the 60's before stabilizing in 90's. That was while eating LC normally.
    A spike to 180 is very high - I believe blood glucose levels become toxic when above 140 for too long - but this is consistent with someone with BG control issues. At least it's coming down to fasting levels within 2-3 hours...that is a positive sign. I don't know what eating solely potatoes would do to you - I never consume just starch, it's always mixed with a protein or vegetables. Would eating a big pile of solely potatoes with no added fat, protein or fiber do the same to me? Maybe I should try it. I have a BG meter.

    Quote Originally Posted by otzi View Post
    So, since Jan 1st, I have been eating approx 1 pound of starch a day (potatoes, sweet potatoes, plantains, and/or rice).

    I hadn't checked my FBG for a while, but after 4 weeks of adding starch, I checked. FBG was 120!

    Specifically, 6am - 120; 8am - 110, 10am - 105, 12am - 100.

    I ate a lunch consisting of 1/2 pound of potato, sour cream, 1/2 pound of salmon, and some green veggies: BG spiked to 160, then dropped over 2 hours to 100 and was 95 at 3 hours.

    Here's my take on all this:

    I was insulin resistant to start from my SAD days, LC helped me to lose weight, but never addressed the underlying issue of insulin resistance. I'm hoping this will self-correct as an FBG of 120 is way too high.

    What's your take?
    I agree you were insulin resistant from the start.

    I agree that low carbohydrate diets simply avoid the problem and do not address the problem in most cases.

    120 is very high. I would like to see you at the 75-83 range. That is the range I consider perfect. I have not eaten anything since 10:00pm last night and drank 4-5 glasses of red wine last night, and I just pricked my finger and revealed a FBG of 71. I typically get the shaky hypoglycemic feeling around a BG of 65, which tends to only happen if I go 16+ hours without food and just eat a lean protein, such as plain 0% Greek yogurt. I've done that before and it made me shaky when beforehand I felt fine. My BG nosedived from the glucagon. I feel fine right now at 71, but not my best from the damn wine. I'm also very hungry.

    I'm not sure if I agree with your methodology. I think you're in a better place than when you started in terms of health. I also think you're doing the right thing by adding carbohydrate back to correct insulin sensitivity. However, I think you're too overzealous. I'd make the following changes:

    1.) I think you're adding too much carbohydrate. Don't go from none to a pound a day. Try half a pound. Yes, a pound is not much - I eat 2-3 lbs in a sitting after a simple workout - but baby steps are key, here.

    2.) I think you're making poor choices in carbohydrate. White potatoes are one of the highest GI whole food carb sources known to man. White rice is almost as high GI as a potato, but with none of the nutrition content. Plantains are one of the most carb-dense whole foods on Earth. Maybe slow your role a bit. Do half a pound of sweet potatoes instead as they have a lower GI and a little bit of fructose. Do some moderate GI fruit - apples, oranges, mangoes. I think a banana is a good choice here. The fructose content may help you because it may get your liver used to processing it again. Maybe you're focusing too much on starch and not enough on sugar.

    3.) Be active, and center your carbohydrate consumption around activity. Insulin sensitivity is highest when following a heavy weight training session. Stay low carb throughout the day, and push your carbohydrate immediately after workout. This way, you can still add carbs to your routine and improve glucose tolerance, but you're timing them when your (not fully healed) body will best tolerate them.

    4.) It's only been a month. You can't expect to fix decades of poor decisions in a month. I don't mean to be harsh, but it's reality.

    I think you're too gung-ho, and your blood glucose numbers are showing you're not quite at that point yet. Pick lower GI carbohydrate sources, time them better (immediately after a workout or later in the evening) and drop your consumption a bit. It may help you. And of course - USE THAT BLOOD GLUCOSE METER! That's the best way to find out if it's working for you.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  8. #588
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    Choco, it doesn't take much to "prevent" this physiological insulin resistance if it even is a problem. You don't even technically need "daily" doses of carbs (and this would be mostly starch since the majority of sugar is delt with in the liver) to prevent it. A refeed once every week or two should be enough to keep your body in check and prevent this from happening.

    If it isn't, then I think you have issues that go beyond the mere physiological that you should probably be addressing and simply adding "more carbs" likely isn't going to do much for you in that case. I'm not saying daily carbs are bad for you, just that it doesn't take very much to prevent the physiological insulin resistance.

  9. #589
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    I think you're too gung-ho, and your blood glucose numbers are showing you're not quite at that point yet. Pick lower GI carbohydrate sources, time them better (immediately after a workout or later in the evening) and drop your consumption a bit. It may help you. And of course - USE THAT BLOOD GLUCOSE METER! That's the best way to find out if it's working for you.
    Dude! Awesome advice, glad I caught you in a writing mood. I have been scaling back the potatoes and hardly ever eat rice, maybe 1X week. I have been eating plantains, greenish bananas, and sweet potatoes more. I will try your idea of eating the starch mainly in evening. I have been eating 2-3 clementines and 1-2 bananas a day.

    I usually IF til noon, exercise a little in the morning and heavy in the afternoons 3-4X/week. Since adding in the starch, I have nearly doubled my capacity for pullups from 60 to 100 in a 6 set window. Also seeing similar progress with weighted squats and pushups.

    In one month of this, I have gained 5 pounds, but it seems to just be added muscle and maybe some extra intestinal matter. Would be nice to get glucose under control. Having insulin sensitivity issues can cause many other set-backs besides high FBG.

  10. #590
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumroll View Post
    Choco, it doesn't take much to "prevent" this physiological insulin resistance if it even is a problem. You don't even technically need "daily" doses of carbs (and this would be mostly starch since the majority of sugar is delt with in the liver) to prevent it. A refeed once every week or two should be enough to keep your body in check and prevent this from happening.
    Sure, it doesn't take much. I wish the typical LC's would understand that. No one is telling them to cut fat out of their diet and survive on pounds of potatoes. Just eat real food. Have a sweet potato with your steak, grab a piece of fruit as a snack if you're hungry instead of pounding handfuls of nuts or drinking butter-blended coffees at 500 calories a pop. Embrace the middle ground instead of dogma.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drumroll View Post
    If it isn't, then I think you have issues that go beyond the mere physiological that you should probably be addressing and simply adding "more carbs" likely isn't going to do much for you in that case. I'm not saying daily carbs are bad for you, just that it doesn't take very much to prevent the physiological insulin resistance.
    My issue is with the methodology of how people determine they "don't tolerate carbs." People go off VLC/LC diets that have made them physiologically insulin resistant, decide to pound 3-4 potatoes in a sitting, have a BG crash from this insulin resistance, then determine they don't tolerate carbohydrate well. It's an insane model. You have to do these things slowly and evenly over long periods of time, not just shock your body and then complain when you feel ill.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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