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  1. #471
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    Why are you drinking 1,000 empty calories every day that you don't even enjoy drinking? That makes no sense. Why not just eat real food? You can eat a dozen eggs for the same calories as a cup of cream and you'll actually get useful nutrition out of them.
    I figure the point of it is that increased Calories from fat also raises metabolic rate. So, to those who wish to get their energy from that source AND have a faster metabolism this is just fine. Not to mention that since going low carb easily curbs appetite it is far easier to under eat and over a period of time you do adapt with a slower metabolism (just the nature of the beast when reducing food quantity). If that's the case...."eat more fat". The old mantra holds.

  2. #472
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neckhammer View Post
    I figure the point of it is that increased Calories from fat also raises metabolic rate. So, to those who wish to get their energy from that source AND have a faster metabolism this is just fine. Not to mention that since going low carb easily curbs appetite it is far easier to under eat and over a period of time you do adapt with a slower metabolism (just the nature of the beast when reducing food quantity). If that's the case...."eat more fat". The old mantra holds.
    Fat has next to no impact on metabolism. Say your metabolism increases 5%. If you're adding 30% more calories to your diet, you're going to gain a lot of weight. And since you're drinking cream, which is essentially entirely empty fat calories, you're going to have a terribly fat:lean mass ratio with that extra weigh. You're better off eating 1,000 extra calories in protein, fruit or starch. They will increase your metabolic rate much more effectively than cream, and because neither are directly stored as body fat you will probably have a better fat:lean mass ratio with the additional weight gained than drinking cream. And you'll actually get nutrition along with it.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  3. #473
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neckhammer View Post
    I figure the point of it is that increased Calories from fat also raises metabolic rate. So, to those who wish to get their energy from that source AND have a faster metabolism this is just fine. Not to mention that since going low carb easily curbs appetite it is far easier to under eat and over a period of time you do adapt with a slower metabolism (just the nature of the beast when reducing food quantity). If that's the case...."eat more fat". The old mantra holds.
    This article shows that T3 generally increases as carbs increase but fat doesn't really make a difference..
    Is a Low Carb Diet Bad For Your Thyroid? | AnthonyColpo

    In the early 1970s, researchers from the University of Vermont published the results of the landmark Vermont experimental obesity studies, in which young men were deliberately overfed for seven months. That these men gained weight, ending up an average of twenty-five percent above their ideal bodyweight, was hardly an earth-shattering finding. What was surprising was that the men required fifty percent more calories to maintain this new heavier weight than they did at their usual lean weights. The researchers later discovered that short-term overfeeding was associated with increased thermogenesis (energy expenditure). Speculating that changes in thyroid function could be responsible, they proceeded to examine the effect of altering calorie and carbohydrate intake on thyroid hormone levels.

    The first of these experiments involved closely supervised volunteer inmates from Vermont State Prison. During the overfeeding experiment, one group consumed a hypercaloric mixed (high-carb) diet for 7 months, while another group ate a hypercaloric high-fat diet for 3 months from primarily fat.

    Again, that both groups gained weight should come as no surprise. However, the group overfed the mixed diet required more calories (2,625 kcal/m2 per day) to maintain their new heavier weights than did the group overfed fat (1,840 kcal/m2 per day). Baseline differences in metabolism between the two groups were ruled out, as there was no difference in total calories required to maintain initial lean weights.

    Before and after the mixed diet overfeeding phase, the volunteers spent four weeks consuming maintenance level high-carbohydrate or low-carbohydrate diets. Thyroid hormone levels were measured at the end of each maintenance period, and after the overeating phase. For an average adult, the amount of carbohydrate consumed during the high- and low-carbohydrate weight-maintenance phases would translate to around 600 and 200 grams daily, respectively.

    During maintenance eating, levels of T3 (triiodothyronine) were higher on the high-carb diet. When subjects on the low-carb diet began eating the higher-carb mixed weight gain diet, their T3 levels rose. T3 levels among those who went from the high-carb maintenance diet to the mixed diet remained unchanged. In contrast to T3, serum concentrations of T4 were unchanged by overeating or changes in dietary composition.

    In the men overfed fat for 3 months, there was no change in mean T3 levels before and after the diet.

  4. #474
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    Fat has next to no impact on metabolism. Say your metabolism increases 5%. If you're adding 30% more calories to your diet, you're going to gain a lot of weight. And since you're drinking cream, which is essentially entirely empty fat calories, you're going to have a terribly fat:lean mass ratio with that extra weigh. You're better off eating 1,000 extra calories in protein, fruit or starch. They will increase your metabolic rate much more effectively than cream, and because neither are directly stored as body fat you will probably have a better fat:lean mass ratio with the additional weight gained than drinking cream. And you'll actually get nutrition along with it.
    Maybe the rest of what they had to eat was nutritionally dense, but had very little fat, and drinking the cream was just a way to add some? I know I sometimes drizzle very lean cuts of meat with butter or ghee. Or are you just advocating a low fat diet in general? Also, I noticed a few posts back that you mentioned having coconut milk (which I also have pretty regularly). That isn't really a lot different than cream, is it? I'm not trying to be a smartass, just trying to understand. This has been a very interesting discussion.

  5. #475
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkward View Post
    Maybe the rest of what they had to eat was nutritionally dense, but had very little fat, and drinking the cream was just a way to add some? I know I sometimes drizzle very lean cuts of meat with butter or ghee. Or are you just advocating a low fat diet in general? Also, I noticed a few posts back that you mentioned having coconut milk (which I also have pretty regularly). That isn't really a lot different than cream, is it? I'm not trying to be a smartass, just trying to understand. This has been a very interesting discussion.
    I don't care what your diet is. I cannot think of a single reason to ever drink heavy cream. It's empty calories plain and simple, and consider that cream is quite inflammatory and often has poor quality fats in it. It is extremely difficult to find quality raw/grassfed cream. I have only seen it at Whole Foods, and if you'd like to pay $6/pint for homogenized grassfed cream, be my guest. Eat real food. Eggs are $1.49/dozen.

    Coconut milk is more nutrient dense than cream. It is more than just empty fat, and it is also a much better quality fat. I am also not drinking 1,000 calories of it in a sitting. I am mixing it with unflavored gelatin as a treat. Consuming 200 calories worth of nutrient-dense MCT's fortified with high quality animal protein is far different than drinking heavy cream mostly devoid of nutrition and fortified with carrageenan.

    EDIT - Just for the hell of it I made a comparison between the two. Notice you can also consume double the volume of coconut milk versus heavy cream due to caloric density. Also, because coconut milk is something like ~2/3 medium chain triglycerides, you will not store coconut milk as fat as efficiently as heavy cream. The MCT's elevate your metabolic rate significantly more than the primarily long chain triglycerides found in heavy cream, too.

    Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 07-13-2012 at 09:31 AM.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  6. #476
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    Fat has next to no impact on metabolism.
    I disagree. And so do you apparently when you go on to "say your metabolism increases 5%"......the rest is irrelevant as your getting into some sort of good, better, best debate without any relevant patient/personal history. If the whole point is to stop symptoms of a slowed metabolism my statement stand. Eat some fat.

    I've added more fat to my diet as of late since I've gained some muscle mass and it has been working out great. I do mine in the form of coconut milk AND cream though, along with cheese and raw milk and of course butter and animal fats. And yes we all know the benefits of using coconut fats.
    Last edited by Neckhammer; 07-13-2012 at 09:41 AM.

  7. #477
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post
    Total agreement on these points. (although I think you may have just lost Otzi the iceman as a follower)

    Kurt Harris points out that getting focused on perfecting your O3/O6 ratio is pointless if the total PUFA quantity in your diet is too high. He recommends focusing on bringing down your O6 instead of raising your O3 to match it.
    I miss a few days and come back to find that PaleoBird is now a Page 1 celebrity...enjoyed your success story. Congrats. (From Cancer Back to Health | Mark's Daily Apple).

    Concerning Ray Peat's ideas on sugar, thyroid, 03:06, and dietary induced/cold thermogenesis. There was talk earlier in the blogosphere about diabetes being an evolutionary adaptation for early man to withstand cold northern winters. It came about through changes in cell membrane permeability due to the 03:06 changes which followed seasonal eating of sugar/carbs in summer and ketogenic meat/fat in winter. It is also well established that thyroid function changes with daylight hours and exposure to cold temps. While this has been a very interesting discussion, I don't see myself changing anything I'm doing, except a more strict adherence to seasonal eating patterns and exposure to cold temperatures in winter.

    To say one should eat tons of sugar year-round is surely wrong and to say one should avoid sugar year round is also surely wrong.

  8. #478
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    Quote Originally Posted by otzi View Post
    I miss a few days and come back to find that PaleoBird is now a Page 1 celebrity...enjoyed your success story. Congrats. (From Cancer Back to Health | Mark's Daily Apple).
    Wow, I just saw that. Awesome!

  9. #479
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    Quote Originally Posted by otzi View Post
    Concerning Ray Peat's ideas on sugar, thyroid, 03:06, and dietary induced/cold thermogenesis. There was talk earlier in the blogosphere about diabetes being an evolutionary adaptation for early man to withstand cold northern winters. It came about through changes in cell membrane permeability due to the 03:06 changes which followed seasonal eating of sugar/carbs in summer and ketogenic meat/fat in winter. It is also well established that thyroid function changes with daylight hours and exposure to cold temps. While this has been a very interesting discussion, I don't see myself changing anything I'm doing, except a more strict adherence to seasonal eating patterns and exposure to cold temperatures in winter.
    I think dietary shifts are healthy in general. You can do it with the seasons and there is some logic to it of course, but it does make sense to me that you can not remain stagnant for years on end without some negative effect.

    So for me no, I have never been in ketosis for years on end...I have been eating in the 50-100g range for years though on average. I have been playing at a new scheme the past week that includes "unlimited" eggs, liver, fat's and meat....one serving of dairy, 1-2 servings of lacto-fermented vegetables, and 30-50g of carbs from startch and fruit per day. The fermented veggies seem to really give me a kick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    I don't care what your diet is. I cannot think of a single reason to ever drink heavy cream. It's empty calories plain and simple, and consider that cream is quite inflammatory and often has poor quality fats in it. It is extremely difficult to find quality raw/grassfed cream. I have only seen it at Whole Foods, and if you'd like to pay $6/pint for homogenized grassfed cream, be my guest. Eat real food. Eggs are $1.49/dozen.

    Coconut milk is more nutrient dense than cream. It is more than just empty fat, and it is also a much better quality fat. I am also not drinking 1,000 calories of it in a sitting. I am mixing it with unflavored gelatin as a treat. Consuming 200 calories worth of nutrient-dense MCT's fortified with high quality animal protein is far different than drinking heavy cream mostly devoid of nutrition and fortified with carrageenan.

    EDIT - Just for the hell of it I made a comparison between the two. Notice you can also consume double the volume of coconut milk versus heavy cream due to caloric density. Also, because coconut milk is something like ~2/3 medium chain triglycerides, you will not store coconut milk as fat as efficiently as heavy cream. The MCT's elevate your metabolic rate significantly more than the primarily long chain triglycerides found in heavy cream, too.

    I'm certainly not advocating drinking cream straight, though I do use it occasionally. I sometimes pour it over strawberries or sliced bananas (I do that with coconut milk also), or use it in mashed potatoes or sauces. I use Kalona cream, which is indeed grass-fed, vat pasteurized at 155 degrees, and no carrageenan. Excellent stuff. A nearby store (Natural Grocers) carries it in 8 oz bottles for about $1.50 I think.

    Like I said, I was just looking for clarification. I find your posts interesting, but every once in a while I see something that seems a bit too rigid - or maybe I just interpret it that way. For example, I had also seen you criticize coconut oil previously (which I use instead of butter sometimes), which obviously has the same MCTs as coconut milk. But maybe you only meant that in reference to people eating spoonfuls of it straight, as opposed to using it on a sweet potato instead of butter, or to add some moisture to a very lean piece of meat like a chicken breast. I would agree that the former is a bit strange, but see no problem with the latter. In fact, I think one would be better off eating a lean piece of chicken with a bit of coconut oil than they would be eating a fatty piece of chicken with its higher PUFA content.

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