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Thread: Why does Danny Roddy recommend sugar to reduce stress/estrogen? page 35

  1. #341
    ChocoTaco369's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by magicmerl View Post
    The last sentence was unnecessary and untrue. Which makes me think you are trolling her.

    I think that everyone on here knows that calorific restriction is (part of) the path to weight loss.

    But I like the high fat version more than the low fat version because I don't feel hungry while eating those fewer calories.
    I don't think it's untrue. I think she's uncomfortable with the subject being discussed here. There's a whole lot here that I don't agree with and don't understand, but I'm interested in learning because Danny is much better researched than I am. Even if he's not totally correct, he's surely correct about some things, so I want to learn a new approach. I feel she'd prefer the thread not exist than challenge what she's comfortable with. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I believe. I wouldn't say I'm trolling her. She takes shots at me, I take shots at her - it's a thing we have, and honestly we both deserve it half of the time because we both completely lack tact. Deep down we probably both enjoy it. There's nothing else better to do at 11:30pm on a Tuesday night. I mean what am I gonna do, sleep?

    You'd be surprised how many people on this site think calories don't matter and it's "all about insulin." Mark used to promote that idea liberally and is just recently starting to come around on calories. Before, this site was populated by people that read Taubes, and the answer to weight loss was to "add more fat" - seriously, wrap your head around that: if you're not losing body fat, add more oil to what you're eating. That is what I truly believed for the first 4-6 months when I started the PB. The forum has become a lot more carb and calorie friendly over the past year and a half. It used to not be this way.

    I prefer a more isocaloric approach. I feel and preform best with an even amount of fat and carbohydrate. If I had to define how I eat, I'd say 30/40/30 fat/protein/carbs. When I first started I used to be 60/30/10.
    Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 07-10-2012 at 09:50 PM.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  2. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    You're actually supplementing Danny's argument with that quote. "Sugar" doesn't make you fat anymore than "fat" makes you fat. It's always in the context of individual foods and overall caloric intake. Durian eats huge amounts of fruit and carbohydrate, yet is very lean. You just posed an argument against yourself.

    Anyone that gets fat off a Peat-style diet is simply overeating. So yes, they are "doing it wrong". Plenty of people on this website put on body fat or lose absolutely no weight because they are eating too many calories. Does that mean Primal doesn't work? Or is the problem the individual?

    You're not making any sense.
    If you calm down a minute and listen you will see that we agree on almost everything. Context and calories, agreed. Sugar, fat, whatever macronutrient ratio. Durian is an example of someone who is lean but not necessarily healthy. That was the point. The fact that Danny lost 20 lbs is nice but irrelevant.
    I totally agree that it is possible to overeat on any plan and therefore not lose weight. I am the one who wrote the calorie counting threads pointing out this reason for failure in some Primal eaters. Remember?
    I'm interested in optimal health but for many people here that means losing weight. If a plan is going to displace a lot of nutritionally dense foods with calorically dense but nutritionally sparse ones, that is cause for concern. You, yourself stated this as the reason you don't plan to start eating table sugar. See, we are agreeing.

  3. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post
    If you calm down a minute and listen you will see that we agree on almost everything. Context and calories, agreed. Sugar, fat, whatever macronutrient ratio. Durian is an example of someone who is lean but not necessarily healthy. That was the point. The fact that Danny lost 20 lbs is nice but irrelevant.
    I totally agree that it is possible to overeat on any plan and therefore not lose weight. I am the one who wrote the calorie counting threads pointing out this reason for failure in some Primal eaters. Remember?
    I'm interested in optimal health but for many people here that means losing weight. If a plan is going to displace a lot of nutritionally dense foods with calorically dense but nutritionally sparse ones, that is cause for concern. You, yourself stated this as the reason you don't plan to start eating table sugar. See, we are agreeing.
    I completely agree with most of that statement. You were one of the first people on MDA to call out the "all about insulin" and "calories don't count" BS that populated this forum since it started. I like Taubes, he has great ideas, he got a lot of people on the right path...but calories are the biggest key to weight loss. I didn't believe this for the longest time due to the insulin-bashing that used to go on here but have since done a big 180.

    I do think we agree on most of this stuff. I just feel you're focusing on the extreme approach - eating cups of sugar and gummy bears. I think that's taking Ray Peat out of context. There is no Peat plan. It's all an amalgamation of research that individuals have tried to translate. Maybe they messed up. Peat acknowledges that white sugar should only be treated as a supplement - he states it's empty calories, so only add it if you "need it". I feel that Peat and Primal can exist simultaneously. A diet of moderately lean red meat, bone broth, lots of fruit and some squashes is pretty darn Primal. I'm not going to start drinking gallons of milk and orange juice because milk makes me break out and I'd rather eat whole oranges. I disagree with that advice.

    The past two dinners were the same: london broil with watermelon and coconut milk pudding (coconut milk + water + gelatin) and 1% cottage cheese. I'm deloading from the gym this week and not eating any starches so I'll see where it takes me. I've been salting my watermelon and lunch salad HEAVILY - probably 3 times more than normal. I typically get cold after I eat, but I feel noticeably warmer already. Not sure if it's the salt, coconut or both?
    Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 07-10-2012 at 09:59 PM.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  4. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by They call me BUTTLOCK View Post
    How much is it, though? I was unintentionally eating about 700 calories eating vegetables, meat and either kerrygold butter or coconut oil. Lost nothing for months (btw I'm huge :\) And I know some people would say, "well you obviously have to raise them", which I tried, of course. But that would mean that calories is some sort of exact math you have to figure out for your body, for lack of a better way of phrasing it. I'm having a hard time buying it.
    I don't think it's an exact math. I don't measure calories. At all.

    700 calories is below starvation level. That seems excessive to me. Why not keep eating until you gain weight slightly, then cut that a little so you are just under? It's weight loss you want right? Or is it 'must lose 100 pounds in 2 months' mode you want to enter?
    Quote Originally Posted by They call me BUTTLOCK View Post
    Every other success story I read has people either not paying attention (or at least making a nod) to their calories or eating a random amount. They seem to be paying attention to macronutrients and whole foods. It can't play that much of a role, if at all. At least, with me.
    The thing that I realised, and I only realised it after being primal for about six months, was that I never knew what it was to be hungry before. I had always eaten like clockwork as a habit. Now I intentionally skip lunches at work (it was just easier than the hassle of bringing something) and since it's 4pm right now, I feel a mild nagging from my stomach that I can easily note as 'hey, hungry' but that doesn't drive all other thoughts from my mind like a low blood sugar hunger would.

    What is your goal? Health? Weight loss? Living a long time? Avoiding diabetes? Some combination of the above?

    For me, the other side of diet is exercise, which I definitely see as a minor component. I don't want to be able to bench press my own body weight. I want to be able to get up off the floor by myself with I'm 70 and I fall over. Or be able to paint the roof of my house when I'm retired. Or go swimming in the sea with my grandkids (when I have any).

    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    I don't think it's untrue. I think she's uncomfortable with the subject being discussed here. There's a whole lot here that I don't agree with and don't understand, but I'm interested in learning because Danny is much better researched than I am. Even if he's not totally correct, he's surely correct about some things, so I want to learn a new approach. I feel she'd prefer the thread not exist than challenge what she's comfortable with. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I believe. I wouldn't say I'm trolling her. She takes shots at me, I take shots at her - it's a thing we have, and honestly we both deserve it half of the time because we both completely lack tact. Deep down we probably both enjoy it. There's nothing else better to do at 11:30pm on a Tuesday night. I mean what am I gonna do, sleep?
    Well, I guess if it's a form of flirting you are both engaging in, I guess I'll just try to ignore it in the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    You'd be surprised how many people on this site think calories don't matter and it's "all about insulin." Mark used to promote that idea liberally and is just recently starting to come around on calories. Before, this site was populated by people that read Taubes, and the answer to weight loss as to "add more fat." That is what I truly believed for the first 4-6 months when I started the PB. The forum has become a lot more carb and calorie friendly over the past year and a half. It used to not be this way.
    Yeah, I came to primal via the low-carb approach, so I definitely thought that too once upon a time. Anthony Copolo had done a reasonably good debunking of the 'metabolic advantage' to my mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    I prefer a more isocaloric approach. I feel and preform best with an even amount of fat and carbohydrate. If I had to define how I eat, I'd say 30/40/30 fat/protein/carbs. When I first started I used to be 60/30/10.
    Yeah, I think that thirds is a pretty reasonable breakdown. It's a head scratcher to me when the diet is characterised as being 'low carb' when carbs are the biggest macro group (or nearly so).
    Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

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  5. #345
    Paleobird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by magicmerl View Post
    The last sentence was unnecessary and untrue. Which makes me think you are trolling her.

    I think that everyone on here knows that calorific restriction is (part of) the path to weight loss.

    But I like the high fat version more than the low fat version because I don't feel hungry while eating those fewer calories.
    No, Chaco wouldn't do anything as juvenile as trolling me, would he?

    Exactly, calories and context. Reducing calories is less stressful when you reduce carbs first. (As opposed to the WW approach.)

  6. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by otzi View Post
    Could you give us a sample menu for a day?
    Here's what I ate today to give you an idea of my typical Peat-y day:

    7am -> Coffee(Espresso shot w/ 8oz raw whole milk and 1Tbsp sugar)
    11am (post yoga) -> Chocolate shake (12oz raw whole milk, 2tbsp homemade chocolate syrup, 1/8tsp salt, and 1tbsp gelatin)
    1pm -> 2 hardboiled eggs w/ salt, 1 nectarine, 10oz OJ w/ baking soda, 1oz 70% dark chocolate
    3:30pm -> "Yummy Earth" Cherry lollipop w/ salt.
    4:30pm -> 30ish cherries, 8oz OJ w/ baking soda, 1oz raw cheddar cheese.
    8pm -> Grass-fed beef hot dog w/ ketchup(made with sugar), 1 nectarine, 8oz whole raw milk

  7. #347
    Paleobird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    I completely agree with most of that statement. You were one of the first people on MDA to call out the "all about insulin" and "calories don't count" BS that populated this forum since it started. I like Taubes, he has great ideas, he got a lot of people on the right path...but calories are the biggest key to weight loss. I didn't believe this for the longest time due to the insulin-bashing that used to go on here but have since done a big 180.

    I do think we agree on most of this stuff. I just feel you're focusing on the extreme approach - eating cups of sugar and gummy bears. I think that's taking Ray Peat out of context. There is no Peat plan. It's all an amalgamation of research that individuals have tried to translate. Maybe they messed up. Peat acknowledges that white sugar should only be treated as a supplement - he states it's empty calories, so only add it if you "need it". I feel that Peat and Primal can exist simultaneously. A diet of moderately lean red meat, bone broth, lots of fruit and some squashes is pretty darn Primal. I'm not going to start drinking gallons of milk and orange juice because milk makes me break out and I'd rather eat whole oranges. I disagree with that advice.

    The past two dinners were the same: london broil with watermelon and coconut milk pudding (coconut milk + water + gelatin) and 1% cottage cheese. I'm deloading from the gym this week and not eating any starches so I'll see where it takes me. I've been salting my watermelon and lunch salad HEAVILY - probably 3 times more than normal. I typically get cold after I eat, but I feel noticeably warmer already. Not sure if it's the salt, coconut or both?
    See, we are not that far apart. I'm glad you are not planning on taking the advice about glugging sweetened OJ and milk. You are more sensible than that. (And that looked like a delicious and fully Primal dinner for a young active guy like you.) Unfortunately, some people just follow whatever is "hot" at the moment and don't think for themselves. I agree with you that there are probably some people taking things out of context and going Whoopie! we get to eat sugar now because this guy said so and he is a doctor. Fiercehunter has been posting all over the place about how great she feels now that she is drinking Coke and eating ice cream all the time thanks to Peat. That gets a bit over the top. This is what I want to avoid. You and I sniping at each other serves no purpose. Fun as it may be sometimes.

    Nobody has a problem with the meat, bone broth, fruit, and tubers part but the chugging OJ and milk and eating table sugar are central to Peat's statements in his blog. You're right that there is no definitive Peat Plan, but I'm just going by what he writes.

  8. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by magicmerl View Post
    I don't think it's an exact math. I don't measure calories. At all.

    700 calories is below starvation level. That seems excessive to me. Why not keep eating until you gain weight slightly, then cut that a little so you are just under? It's weight loss you want right? Or is it 'must lose 100 pounds in 2 months' mode you want to enter?

    The thing that I realised, and I only realised it after being primal for about six months, was that I never knew what it was to be hungry before. I had always eaten like clockwork as a habit. Now I intentionally skip lunches at work (it was just easier than the hassle of bringing something) and since it's 4pm right now, I feel a mild nagging from my stomach that I can easily note as 'hey, hungry' but that doesn't drive all other thoughts from my mind like a low blood sugar hunger would.

    What is your goal? Health? Weight loss? Living a long time? Avoiding diabetes? Some combination of the above?

    For me, the other side of diet is exercise, which I definitely see as a minor component. I don't want to be able to bench press my own body weight. I want to be able to get up off the floor by myself with I'm 70 and I fall over. Or be able to paint the roof of my house when I'm retired. Or go swimming in the sea with my grandkids (when I have any).
    Yeah I didn't intentionally mean to eat that little. I was just never hungry. I was always full after eating. I was pretty surprised at the numbers when I crunched them. I'm afraid to "test", because it's really ...really hard to lose even a pound once I gain it. I don't need record speed weight loss of course, haha. But taking 3 weeks for a pound, if, is rough ...especially when I have about 180 more to lose.

    My goal is weight loss, but I have some other issues (basically every symptom of PCOS except the period thing).

    Is that how you guys did it? You just kinda came up with a number and tested? If you maintained, you created a deficit to lose?

  9. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by bopfer View Post
    Here's what I ate today to give you an idea of my typical Peat-y day:

    7am -> Coffee(Espresso shot w/ 8oz raw whole milk and 1Tbsp sugar)
    11am (post yoga) -> Chocolate shake (12oz raw whole milk, 2tbsp homemade chocolate syrup, 1/8tsp salt, and 1tbsp gelatin)
    1pm -> 2 hardboiled eggs w/ salt, 1 nectarine, 10oz OJ w/ baking soda, 1oz 70% dark chocolate
    3:30pm -> "Yummy Earth" Cherry lollipop w/ salt.
    4:30pm -> 30ish cherries, 8oz OJ w/ baking soda, 1oz raw cheddar cheese.
    8pm -> Grass-fed beef hot dog w/ ketchup(made with sugar), 1 nectarine, 8oz whole raw milk
    Are you using the gelatin sold normally in stores, or something like this:: Great Lakes Unflavored Gelatin, Kosher: Grocery & Gourmet Food.

    I have 4 canisters of those, and after using a bit ... I don't think they would work in your recipe, haha. Very stinky, not exactly flavorless.

  10. #350
    Paleobird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bopfer View Post
    Here's what I ate today to give you an idea of my typical Peat-y day:

    7am -> Coffee(Espresso shot w/ 8oz raw whole milk and 1Tbsp sugar)
    11am (post yoga) -> Chocolate shake (12oz raw whole milk, 2tbsp homemade chocolate syrup, 1/8tsp salt, and 1tbsp gelatin)
    1pm -> 2 hardboiled eggs w/ salt, 1 nectarine, 10oz OJ w/ baking soda, 1oz 70% dark chocolate
    3:30pm -> "Yummy Earth" Cherry lollipop w/ salt.
    4:30pm -> 30ish cherries, 8oz OJ w/ baking soda, 1oz raw cheddar cheese.
    8pm -> Grass-fed beef hot dog w/ ketchup(made with sugar), 1 nectarine, 8oz whole raw milk
    Hmmm. "Eat six times a day to keep your metabolism up". Seems I've heard that somewhere before.............

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