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    Gadsie's Avatar
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    How to explain PUFAs are bad?

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    I need to explain as scientific as possible to my dad why PUFAs are unhealthy. I'm not good at doing research. But I've come this far:
    Pufas have double carbon bonds and the open space between these double bonds allows oxidation to occur. Because of oxidation, molecules can lose electrons which will turn the molecules into free radicals. Free radicals try to "gain" back their electron by taking an electron from another molecule. This forms a chain reaction which can damage DNA.
    I hope I am right, as I said, I'm not good at doing research.

    But if I'm right so far, I have 2 questions. Why does oxidation make molecules lose electrons? I can't really figure out what oxidation exactly is.
    And, why does this chain reaction of "exchanging electrons" damage DNA?
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    first question:
    Redox (oxidation/reduction) reactions involve the losing or gaining of an electron, respectively, by a molecule. oxidation is losing (OIL) and reduction is gaining (RIG) - mnemonic OIL RIG. reduction is gaining as it refers to the "reduction" of the overall charge of the molecule - e.g., gaining an electron is the gaining of one negatively charged particle, e.g., the complete charge of the molecule decreases by 1 arbitrary charge unit. (electrons charge -1, protons charge +1, neutrons are neutral, etc. if more interested, go take a chemistry class and then a biology class - both will help you understand nutritional information.) Oxidation makes molecules lose an electron because that is the definition of what oxidation is. so if you see anything about PUFAs being oxidized, it means that that poly-unsaturated fatty acid chain has lost an electron due to overheating or chemical intervention. This means that the PUFA is POSITIVELY CHARGED compared to its previous state after having lost an electron. (electrons are -1, so losing an electron means you lose one overall -1 charge, so you are +1 compared to what you previously were. not +1 overall, necessarily, but +1 compared to before the oxidative reaction.) that is the DEFINITION of oxidation - ergo, oxidation makes molecules lose electrons because that's what oxidation is.

    2) a fatty acid chain, such as in a PUFA, in a +1 charged state compared to its natural state, is liable to "steal" electrons from other molecules - including your DNA or protein structures. this is to say - the PUFA *gains* an electron (RIG - reduction is gaining!) or becomes reduced by stealing an electron from another intracellular molecule like DNA or a structural protein. since reduction is GAINING an electron, this means that the donor molecule is LOSING and electron, and what is losing? (oxidation is losing! OIL RIG!) this means that the donor molecule is OXIDIZED. ergo, DNA or another donor molecule has lost an electron, become positively charged compared to its previous state, and is liable to bind to things electromagnetically that it would not have otherwise.

    Gadsie, working up from this concept can be tough. Analogizing from molecular theory to biological reality is always going to be theoretical and not 100% accurate, so don't be too overly terrified of so-called "oxidizing foods!" and too bent on "antioxidant sources!" because it is by necessity an oversimplification. People do PhDs on this stuff and it still doesn't get more straightforward than what I've outlined above - it only gets more complex and specifically circumstantial. Having said that, this model does seem to hold for PUFAs and oxidative stress. And... go, jimhensen! If you need more explanation, feel free to PM me; I used to teach high school chem/bio before I left to do more postgrad so I've got a few resources up my sleeve I can link you to if you need. However, as I stated in the first paragraph - the best thing you can do to understand the above shizzle is to take chemistry, take biology, and do your best to absorb *specifically* the molecular principles from each. It is seriously, seriously worth it.

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    peril's Avatar
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    The problem is not that oxidised PUFAs may damage other molecules. The problem is that oxidised PUFAs form small, dense LDL, which more readily gets into the walls of inflamed arteries to form plaques that does healthy LDL
    Four years Primal with influences from Jaminet & Shanahan and a focus on being anti-inflammatory. Using Primal to treat CVD and prevent stents from blocking free of drugs.

    Eat creatures nose-to-tail (animal, fowl, fish, crustacea, molluscs), a large variety of vegetables (raw, cooked and fermented, including safe starches), dairy (cheese & yoghurt), occasional fruit, cocoa, turmeric & red wine

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    I'm betting there's an MDA blog post that makes it very understandable?

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    Gadsie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bananabonobo View Post
    first question:
    Redox (oxidation/reduction) reactions involve the losing or gaining of an electron, respectively, by a molecule. oxidation is losing (OIL) and reduction is gaining (RIG) - mnemonic OIL RIG. reduction is gaining as it refers to the "reduction" of the overall charge of the molecule - e.g., gaining an electron is the gaining of one negatively charged particle, e.g., the complete charge of the molecule decreases by 1 arbitrary charge unit. (electrons charge -1, protons charge +1, neutrons are neutral, etc. if more interested, go take a chemistry class and then a biology class - both will help you understand nutritional information.) Oxidation makes molecules lose an electron because that is the definition of what oxidation is. so if you see anything about PUFAs being oxidized, it means that that poly-unsaturated fatty acid chain has lost an electron due to overheating or chemical intervention. This means that the PUFA is POSITIVELY CHARGED compared to its previous state after having lost an electron. (electrons are -1, so losing an electron means you lose one overall -1 charge, so you are +1 compared to what you previously were. not +1 overall, necessarily, but +1 compared to before the oxidative reaction.) that is the DEFINITION of oxidation - ergo, oxidation makes molecules lose electrons because that's what oxidation is.

    2) a fatty acid chain, such as in a PUFA, in a +1 charged state compared to its natural state, is liable to "steal" electrons from other molecules - including your DNA or protein structures. this is to say - the PUFA *gains* an electron (RIG - reduction is gaining!) or becomes reduced by stealing an electron from another intracellular molecule like DNA or a structural protein. since reduction is GAINING an electron, this means that the donor molecule is LOSING and electron, and what is losing? (oxidation is losing! OIL RIG!) this means that the donor molecule is OXIDIZED. ergo, DNA or another donor molecule has lost an electron, become positively charged compared to its previous state, and is liable to bind to things electromagnetically that it would not have otherwise.

    Gadsie, working up from this concept can be tough. Analogizing from molecular theory to biological reality is always going to be theoretical and not 100% accurate, so don't be too overly terrified of so-called "oxidizing foods!" and too bent on "antioxidant sources!" because it is by necessity an oversimplification. People do PhDs on this stuff and it still doesn't get more straightforward than what I've outlined above - it only gets more complex and specifically circumstantial. Having said that, this model does seem to hold for PUFAs and oxidative stress. And... go, jimhensen! If you need more explanation, feel free to PM me; I used to teach high school chem/bio before I left to do more postgrad so I've got a few resources up my sleeve I can link you to if you need. However, as I stated in the first paragraph - the best thing you can do to understand the above shizzle is to take chemistry, take biology, and do your best to absorb *specifically* the molecular principles from each. It is seriously, seriously worth it.
    Ok, I think I understand it better now, but how come PUFAs oxidize then? yes, for example because they are heated, but why (or rather how) does heating cause oxidation?
    Billie trips balls

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    Gadsie's Avatar
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    Is there maybe a book/dvd whatever that explains all this in detail? School is utter bullshit, I do the highest level available but I still don't learn sh*t
    Billie trips balls

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    This page doesn't answer why PUFA is more prone to oxidation (that could probably be answered with a good organic chemistry class) but it does have lots of information.
    What You Should Know About Fatty Acids
    Female, 5'3", 49, Starting weight: 163lbs. Current weight: 135 (more or less).
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    What I tell people is that PUFAs easily go rancid and turn into something like transfat. But I don't know if that is a close enough approximation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pamsc View Post
    What I tell people is that PUFAs easily go rancid and turn into something like transfat. But I don't know if that is a close enough approximation.
    Well I want to be a %100 prepared when my dad starts another conversation about how meat will give me heartattacks. He just said it at dinner. I asked him "So tell me why saturated fat is bad" he said, straight forward "yeah I don't know"
    Gets me so frustrated
    Billie trips balls

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes View Post
    This page doesn't answer why PUFA is more prone to oxidation (that could probably be answered with a good organic chemistry class) but it does have lots of information.
    What You Should Know About Fatty Acids
    Thanks
    Billie trips balls

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