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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by RitaRose View Post
    Nope. I don't twist anything around. I don't have to. I don't take the Bible literally. Lots of people like that around.

    Seriously, like you could really explain intricate scientific principles to a mostly illiterate populace back then - you're going to have to tone it down a bit so they'll understand the concept.
    I understand this line of thought, I truly do, but it allows human psychology to alter data (that data here being the Bible). We humans often find ourselves finding patterns where none really exist (think of cloud watching). Using our modern understanding of history and Physics (by which I refer to all scientific fields), it is possibly to attribute MANY fantastic meanings to even the simplest legend. This has been done quite famously with the multifold "prophesies" of Nostradamus. You can read books full of precise interpretations, and see for yourself how they change over the years as different events take place.

    I don't mean to pick on you RitaRose, even if it may seem that way.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiltondeportes View Post
    Our governments, schools, police squads, etc would all work fantastic if everyone was perfect!
    If everyone were perfect you wouldn't need governments, schools, police squads, etc.

    The fact is, we don't even need these things even though we are imperfect.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiltondeportes View Post
    Doctors, psychatrists, cops, and teachers were all roles that were taken up by members of the tribe in exchange for being part of the tribe. There was no payment, and they never thought that they would need "more" to be happier.
    Wait, what?! There were taxes, and public protection rackets, and psychiatrists, and public school teachers, and public sector medical doctors in paleolithic times?

  4. #84
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    Way to miss the forest for the trees, Grok. He's saying that the very important social roles of teacher, healer, leader, conflict resolver, etc. we're taken up as needed on a voluntary basis, according to one's inclinations and abilities, because the close genetic and emotional ties of the people in a tribe to each other motivates behavior that fosters preservation of the group identity, in order to mutually increase the odds of survival for each member.

    It doesn't mean people were never petty and never corrupt and never awful, just that the basic function of such societies doesn't rely on our narrow, individualistically money-centered views of fair exchange and justice, and also doesn't require the psychotic philosophy of continual expansion, improvement and conquest.
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  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grok View Post
    If everyone were perfect you wouldn't need governments, schools, police squads, etc.

    The fact is, we don't even need these things even though we are imperfect.
    There's a difference from being 'perfect' and being 'not flawed'. This middle ground is called 'natural'. We naturally must decide who gets what, we naturally must teach our youngsters how to live, and we naturally must protect our area from violent threats.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grok View Post
    Wait, what?! There were taxes, and public protection rackets, and psychiatrists, and public school teachers, and public sector medical doctors in paleolithic times?
    The tribe members performed the duties of protection, teaching, emotional support, craftsmanship, medicine man, etc....yes in Paleolithic times as well as any other times. The tribe members were not paid for these duties. What they received was membership in this tribe, which was 100% self-sustainable. They gave support by performing their duty to the tribe, and they received support by getting all the benefits of being part of the tribe.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiltondeportes View Post
    There's a difference from being 'perfect' and being 'not flawed'. This middle ground is called 'natural'. We naturally must decide who gets what, we naturally must teach our youngsters how to live, and we naturally must protect our area from violent threats.

    The tribe members performed the duties of protection, teaching, emotional support, craftsmanship, medicine man, etc....yes in Paleolithic times as well as any other times. The tribe members were not paid for these duties. What they received was membership in this tribe, which was 100% self-sustainable. They gave support by performing their duty to the tribe, and they received support by getting all the benefits of being part of the tribe.
    You think they actually had a person designated as teacher? What exactly did they teach? Advanced Euclidean geometry? History of ancient civilizations? Poetry? Psychology?

    Do you really think there were certain people designated as cops? Or protectors? What evidence do you have of that?! Why would you need police protection in a paleolithic tribe of probably less than 100 people? You only had large civilizations after the advent of farming.

    Sure, there were probably the Elders who were too old to hunt, but you probably had to go through thirty years of hunting before reaching elder status. And I'm pretty sure the medicine man was also the spiritual leader of the tribe. There wasn't much of a division of labor back in the old days.

    I can just see it now, Grok growing up 25,000 years ago contemplating his future and deciding on becoming a carpenter for his make believe anarcho-socialist tribe.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncephalized View Post
    Way to miss the forest for the trees, Grok. He's saying that the very important social roles of teacher, healer, leader, conflict resolver, etc.
    Yeah right, I think I'll be conflict resolver. You guys go hunt some meat and when I decide that I get all the spoils, I will also resolve the conflict.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grok View Post
    You think they actually had a person designated as teacher? What exactly did they teach? Advanced Euclidean geometry? History of ancient civilizations? Poetry? Psychology?

    Do you really think there were certain people designated as cops? Or protectors? What evidence do you have of that?! Why would you need police protection in a paleolithic tribe of probably less than 100 people? You only had large civilizations after the advent of farming.

    Sure, there were probably the Elders who were too old to hunt, but you probably had to go through thirty years of hunting before reaching elder status. And I'm pretty sure the medicine man was also the spiritual leader of the tribe. There wasn't much of a division of labor back in the old days.

    I can just see it now, Grok growing up 25,000 years ago contemplating his future and deciding on becoming a carpenter for his make believe anarcho-socialist tribe.
    You're mistaking people's titles with duties.

    On the education topic in particular, you do not understand how education works. Kids could watch all the adults in action to learn from. There was no person necessarily designated as 'teacher'. I'm sure though that there were many ways that kids were educated.

    You're applying our society's values to theirs. It doesn't work to do that. Why would or should they care about Euclidean geometry? Poetry and history are found in story-tellings around the campfire. Psychology is innate to talk and think about. Let me guess...the next thing you're going to mock is who the teacher was for writing/reading.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grok View Post
    Yeah right, I think I'll be conflict resolver. You guys go hunt some meat and when I decide that I get all the spoils, I will also resolve the conflict.
    Gosh. I'm wrong, you're right. Tribes never worked. They lasted millions of years because of sheer luck. Good thing in the last 5% of history of the most anatomically modern version of humans, we created a system that works so much better.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiltondeportes View Post
    Gosh. I'm wrong, you're right. Tribes never worked. They lasted millions of years because of sheer luck. Good thing in the last 5% of history of the most anatomically modern version of humans, we created a system that works so much better.
    How many people do you think were in these tribes? Do you think when you broke a leg 25,000 years ago you were rushed off to a socialist tribal doctor who put you in a splint?

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