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  1. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by magicmerl View Post
    At what point does 'humility' become transposed with 'willful ignorance' in that sentence?

    We are homeschooling our kids with a christian mindset, but we aren't 'young earthers'. I think that 'creationism' is the work of man, not of God.
    In all honesty, I think that point is exactly where you, Merl, put it. You get to do that for yourself and your homeschool. Mine may or not be at the same point. I don't see how we, as two individuals, can do any different. Scientists are generally not stupid, and the physical laws of this universe, to the best of my understanding, have been constant since the beginning of it, so I get what the question is about.

    But I am still going to let GeorgiaPeach have her belief (not that I can take it, after all), and listen to her. My background is with an arch-conservative church, so I also understand that for her there is more at play here. Where I used to be, that "more" did trump other considerations - and runs smack into your Willful Ignorance wall. She is on the other side of that wall, wondering when you are going to climb over to her side.

    I am sitting on the wall, listening to everybody.

    I will give up some personal information - right now, I attend a Unitarian Universalist church. I am not a member. I found them by doing the quiz on BeliefNet out of sheer frustration, and then locating a local branch. I poked around there for two years before I decided to bring the family - I am highly protective of my daughters. I needed a place where I could think and feel and research just every flippin' thing - I felt so lost after leaving my old church, and the last thing I needed was another strong-theology place of worship with which to internally battle. And those folks don't tell me what to believe. They only have enough ground rules that everybody knows what constitutes good behavior when in church or representing church or at a church function. So even though UU's aren't exactly contemporarily known for being Christian, nobody gives me a hassle that I have a much stronger Christian leaning than they do (the church's genesis was Christian, and they still recognize that) while I straighten myself out.

    I understand how Creationism could be the work of man. My tendency is toward your point of view, just so I have said it. I choose to put my "willful ignorance" point right... about... - there. For me though, a most important consideration is keeping up friendly dialogue with as many stable people as I can - we all should go to PrimalCon sometime and do coconut oil shots and cod-liver oil shooters with steak-juice chasers and then see who can crawl through the sand to the water the fastest, arguing all the while about how old the earth is...

  2. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crabbcakes View Post
    I will give up some personal information - right now, I attend a Unitarian Universalist church. I am not a member. I found them by doing the quiz on BeliefNet out of sheer frustration, and then locating a local branch. I poked around there for two years before I decided to bring the family - I am highly protective of my daughters. I needed a place where I could think and feel and research just every flippin' thing - I felt so lost after leaving my old church, and the last thing I needed was another strong-theology place of worship with which to internally battle. And those folks don't tell me what to believe. They only have enough ground rules that everybody knows what constitutes good behavior when in church or representing church or at a church function. So even though UU's aren't exactly contemporarily known for being Christian, nobody gives me a hassle that I have a much stronger Christian leaning than they do (the church's genesis was Christian, and they still recognize that) while I straighten myself out.
    When I bestir myself early enough on a Sunday morning, I also attend a UU church. I have friends there who are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Pagan, Humanist and every other possible shade and flavor of belief systems and all respect each other and get along well. I am an atheist and fit in just fine too. We have a large sub-group who call themselves the Earth Centered Spirituality group and hold celebrations under the full moon and at the solstices, etc. This earth centered spirituality is, to me, what seems the most compatible with PB. Reverence for the planet that sustains us is something that I think most of us particularly urban dwellers could do well to be reminded of.

  3. #333
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    Hmmmm... a Sunday go to church atheist? That's a new one on me. I sleep in.
    I suspect that this is more about a feeling of community than about 'church' in the Southern Baptist horror of the traditional sense that I remember.

    In reading about the UU I think it's pretty interesting. A really great concept for people who transition out of traditional 'church' and still want the community feeling.

    Also... THIS (the Warning in particular) is priceless...
    Even if YOU don't know what faith you are, Belief-O-MaticTM knows. Answer 20 questions about your concept of God, the afterlife, human nature, and more, and Belief-O-Matic™ will tell you what religion (if any) you practice...or ought to consider practicing.

    Warning: Belief-O-Matic™ assumes no legal liability for the ultimate fate of your soul.

    Two thumbs up for Beliefnet for a great sense of humor.
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
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  4. #334
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    Me too...

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    1. Secular Humanism (100%)
    2. Unitarian Universalism (92%)
    3. Nontheist (84%)

    Stone cold busted by the Belief-O-Matic!

    I suppose I might get along OK in a UU church depending on what I found there... every other church I've ever been to has been WAY to touchy, feely, and in my personal space (besides the severe lack of logic thing). And I HATE that....
    People... you DON'T know me! Stop touching!!! Hugs??? AYFKM?
    Always makes me want to run screaming... and that's before a preacher even lit up and hell fire or brim stone... or just droned on for an hour and put everyone except for the ONE "hallelujah" "praise the lord" and "a-MEN" commenter up in the third row who kept snapping people awake intermittently... necks bobbing up like the whole church doing a cranial wave.
    Sofa king fun.
    Last edited by cori93437; 06-28-2012 at 10:59 PM.
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
    ~Friedrich Nietzsche
    And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.


  5. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by cori93437 View Post
    Hmmmm... a Sunday go to church atheist? That's a new one on me. I sleep in.
    I suspect that this is more about a feeling of community than about 'church' in the Southern Baptist horror of the traditional sense that I remember.

    In reading about the UU I think it's pretty interesting. A really great concept for people who transition out of traditional 'church' and still want the community feeling.
    Sleeping in is my preference too. For a while I went every week because I was in the choir but that got to be too much of a time commitment. I have many UU friends who describe themselves as "recovering <dogmatic religion here>s". My best friend is an elderly lady who while feeling culturally connected to Judaism is also an atheist. She refers to herself as a Jewnitarian. I was raised as an atheist and have stayed that way.


    For me, going to the UU church was about the music and the community. They are really great people. Any time I show up there I am welcome with no finger wagging about not having been around. I saw my former choir director who greeted me with, "Ah, it's the lost sheep" to which I replied, "Baaaaahh". That's as close as we get to dogma.

  6. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post
    Sleeping in is my preference too. For a while I went every week because I was in the choir but that got to be too much of a time commitment. I have many UU friends who describe themselves as "recovering <dogmatic religion here>s". My best friend is an elderly lady who while feeling culturally connected to Judaism is also an atheist. She refers to herself as a Jewnitarian. I was raised as an atheist and have stayed that way.


    For me, going to the UU church was about the music and the community. They are really great people. Any time I show up there I am welcome with no finger wagging about not having been around. I saw my former choir director who greeted me with, "Ah, it's the lost sheep" to which I replied, "Baaaaahh". That's as close as we get to dogma.
    Very cool...
    It's nice to know that there is a place for the 'recovering froms' and all... a bit of a land of misfit toys where everyone can still have the community and friendship offered by those types of institutions without feeling pushed into new commitments or judged for making the decisions they have made about their beliefs.
    Very cool indeed.
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
    ~Friedrich Nietzsche
    And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.


  7. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by cori93437 View Post
    Hmmmm... a Sunday go to church atheist? That's a new one on me.
    Yea, that had me with the little *plink* thing in my head, too, in the beginning. In my UU, about a quarter of the congregation is atheist, another quarter agnostic or humanist, another guarter Deist / Theist of some sort, and then there are the oddballs like me who are escapees from very conservative churches and religions, with a few self-avowed Pagans for spice. The Reverend is a practicing Buddhist. A fair number of members are professors at a local university (including things like Philosophy and Russian). Their Sunday programs include references and readings and poetry from literally all the artists and thinkers / philosophers and spiritual leaders and (good) political leaders of all times and places. You could literally get a humanities education worthy of a degree by sticking around for a few years and researching everything that comes up in the order of service. Music is provided by two classically trained pianists, and there is a baby grand at the front of the church.

    It is located in a rotten part of the city it calls home, but the congregants VOTED to stay in the middle of group-home-hell (they did this before I got there), so at coffee hour you have a couple of folks whose lives really, really didn't run well come in and make free with the treats and coffee, and Rev lets them. The UU supports something very much like Habitat for Humanity and have fixed up a few houses on neighboring streets. There is an urban garden supported by the UU that some more luckless folks help with, and each spring the kids go and pick the strawberries and immediately make them into jam, which is then sold at the UU farmer's market on Saturdays (it was started out of concern that the inner city was a "food desert" - look it up).

    The common thread that runs through all seems to be a concern for social justice. In its own way, it is a phenomenal education for young people - the congregants agree on hardly anything, but seem to never descend into name-calling, back-biting, or assorted other evils; each works on something to make the world a bit "better" (don't laugh - they generally pick tough stuff); and they all find a way to rub along - Sunday after Sunday.

    Everybody's holidays get celebrated - from Chinese New Year (a young adoptee from China in the youth programs) to Easter to Martin Luther King Day to May Day. There is a LOT of noisy talk and laughter. Practically each member has something they feel a righteous calling to "fix" (either in the church or in the world at large), so the UU is a church with waaaayy too many committees - practically one for every cause. I am not used to that - I am used to top-down, brass-gives-the-command-and-troops-march organization. This committee-mindedness made me crazy recently - some women all couldn't agree on CARPETING for ONE of the youth classrooms, so while it took them flippin' FOREVER to build a CONSENSUS on synthetic floor covering, I went to a former Catholic (they understand top-down psychology) and complained that they all were wusses for getting hung up on something so trivial, and why can't just one person be authorized to make the damn decision already!

    What I bring to the mix is an agitation for learning the stories of the Bible (I don't care if they literally BELIEVE them, I just think that, being so important to the development of Western thought, they cannot be overlooked); experience with seriously special-needs kids (my daughter - for all their variety, they didn't have one of these yet); and someone who had my particular religious background (I got lots of questions about that the first few months in once they heard where I had been).

  8. #338
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  9. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post
    I was raised as an atheist and have stayed that way.
    This is interesting. Even though we have atheists at my UU, I haven't yet learned that any of them were raised this way. I think a number of ours came to it through personal reflection / experience as adults. So I have to ask - how did this look like for you? I can't imagine children's storybooks... (friendly chuckle)

    ("Jewnitarian" - that is good! The self-deprecating humor is one of the things I really like about UUism. No sucking-lemons faces there!)

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