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  1. #51
    jimhensen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BestBetter View Post
    If you're so cynical about this way of eating, why do you keep visiting this forum? Oh, I forgot, you've been asked that a thousand times already and don't have a good answer.
    I like arguing with people that are wrong on the internet. I guess you prefer a nice big circle jerk though where everyone just agrees with everything you believe.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimhensen View Post
    I like arguing with people that are wrong on the internet.
    So do we.
    My sorely neglected blog - http://ThatWriterBroad.com

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimhensen View Post
    I like arguing with people that are wrong on the internet.
    A mirror would've been cheaper and equally effective.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimhensen View Post
    There is a bit of a confirmation bias when it comes to reading the success stories on this website. If someone doesn't do well on primal they probably are going to stop visiting this site. Saying primal is the best is foolish. No one diet is the best for everyone. Primal is probably not ideal for high level athletes. I also think it can cause problems with people that are more prone to binge eating, as can any diet that restricts whole food groups.
    Again, I reference this week's success story about the triathlete couple. Are triathlete's not "high level athletes?" Is Mark himself not a "high level athlete"? What exactly do you define as a "high level athlete"? From where I (and many others I imagine) stand, the couple and Mark are pretty damned high level to us. They aren't the only ones who are Primal and do these types of things either, but they are the two most prominent examples I can think of at the moment.

    On the issue of binge eating, all diets have this problem-by their nature as a "diet" restrictions are in place on a number of items in multiple food groups. Primal is not a diet-it is a lifestyle. Talking about it as a diet is a disservice to it and a massive understatement. People have healed things with Primal they never thought possible could be done without medicine. People have not only lost weight-a neat secondary effect of Primal-but also gained an understanding of their bodies that they never had before.

    Based on what I've seen, read, and experienced in my own limited life, Primal is simply the best way of doing things. Yes, it gets rid of an entire food group (bread) and yes, it does-initially-appear incredibly tough. But Primal is flexible, more so than any other way of eating I've seen, and the elimination of bread and processed junk almost universally is a good thing for people.
    Went Primal July 25th, 2011.

    Current Age: 25

    Total Loss: 126 lbs

    Starting Stats: Weighed 266 lbs, Body Fat 37.6% (100 lbs), BMI 40.9

    Current Stats: Weight 140 lbs, Body Fat 15.2% (21.1 lbs), BMI 21.2

    Current Goals: Get a stronger core through Pilates and continue being as Primal as I can be.

    My Weight Loss Notes Now on a blog page. It starts with "My Weight Loss: Introduction." Available to the public, share with friends if you'd like!

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by trekfan View Post
    Again, I reference this week's success story about the triathlete couple. Are triathlete's not "high level athletes?" Is Mark himself not a "high level athlete"? What exactly do you define as a "high level athlete"? From where I (and many others I imagine) stand, the couple and Mark are pretty damned high level to us. They aren't the only ones who are Primal and do these types of things either, but they are the two most prominent examples I can think of at the moment.

    On the issue of binge eating, all diets have this problem-by their nature as a "diet" restrictions are in place on a number of items in multiple food groups. Primal is not a diet-it is a lifestyle. Talking about it as a diet is a disservice to it and a massive understatement. People have healed things with Primal they never thought possible could be done without medicine. People have not only lost weight-a neat secondary effect of Primal-but also gained an understanding of their bodies that they never had before.

    Based on what I've seen, read, and experienced in my own limited life, Primal is simply the best way of doing things. Yes, it gets rid of an entire food group (bread) and yes, it does-initially-appear incredibly tough. But Primal is flexible, more so than any other way of eating I've seen, and the elimination of bread and processed junk almost universally is a good thing for people.
    Hey, if it works for you, great. It works for a lot of people. As long as you do it right primal is definitely a healthy diet and can help you lose weight if that is what you are looking for.

    I just have a few problems with the preaching. If it works for you great, but realize it might not be the best diet for others. Telling people they should give up grains might not be the best approach for them. Also, just because someone eats grains it doesn't mean they are unhealthy or would be healthier if they gave them up. The research doesn't support it and that is why primal will never become mainstream.

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    What research deals directly with whether or not grains are healthy?

    All I have ever seen are studies that manipulate the numbers from other research.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobthePhotoGuy View Post
    What research deals directly with whether or not grains are healthy?

    All I have ever seen are studies that manipulate the numbers from other research.
    Well if I had to make a judgment on whether grains are healthy or not from the research I have seen, I would say that they are, but that is really besides the point. I can tell you that I have found very little evidence that it is bad for you.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimhensen View Post
    Hey, if it works for you, great. It works for a lot of people. As long as you do it right primal is definitely a healthy diet and can help you lose weight if that is what you are looking for.

    I just have a few problems with the preaching. If it works for you great, but realize it might not be the best diet for others. Telling people they should give up grains might not be the best approach for them. Also, just because someone eats grains it doesn't mean they are unhealthy or would be healthier if they gave them up. The research doesn't support it and that is why primal will never become mainstream.
    Official research doesn't support it, I grant you this-simply because no one has looked into it (at least to my knowledge) and I doubt anyone will anytime soon, simply because grains (corn in particular) are used so widely in every food made. It's not profitable for a company to support research that could find that the product it makes is unhealthy; it doesn't make any sense.

    However, I argue that because official research doesn't exist that fact doesn't invalid Primal. The research of simply observing the various stories, experiences, and numbers (for those that post them) here seems to confirm that life without grains is, for most parties, a better life. Sure, there aren't any official numbers, but we as human beings have the ability to determine for ourselves, with our own eyes/mind what works and what doesn't. Judging by what I and others see here, and in various Paleo/Primal sites/blogs around the internet, it seems as if people are beginning to come around, albeit slowly.

    If grains were so vital, so necessary, for a healthy life and diet, than why have so many of us found that life without them is so much better than it ever was with them? The entire Primal community here and around the world can't be a statistical anomaly, can it? We can't all be blessed with some magical ability to live a good life without grains, can we? That makes no rational, logical sense. When so many people are eating diets full of grains and processed foods (with HFCS and other grain based derivatives in it) and their health continues to decline by following the same advice doctors/nutritionists/ect have been giving for decades...doesn't that say their way is broken? I can't make any other conclusion. I acknowledge there are an infinite number of variables to take into account with such a broad statement (genetics, exercise, illness, ect) but the human body responds more to diet than anything-if the diet is messed up, than you might as well not even bother.

    Will Primal become mainstream? Not for another two decades at least. Not until it becomes too burdensome, unprofitable, and costly to the companies/people/government that supports this grain obsessed diet will things change.

    Will Primal find a larger following in that time? Absolutely. The power of the internet, personal experience, and in-your-face results will continue to find Primal living growing, ever so slowly, throughout the world. The research will begin to show up, there's already some promising-albeit it hesitant-research out there that's just a few steps away from making the connection between grains and the poor state of health in this country (and in other countries worldwide).

    As to your problem with the preaching...why are you even here? This is a site DEDICATED to Primal and you're hobb knobbing with us crazies. I appreciate the dose of outside perspective you bring (and enjoy a good debate as you can tell) but if you don't want to hear the preaching, stay out of the church (so to speak).
    Went Primal July 25th, 2011.

    Current Age: 25

    Total Loss: 126 lbs

    Starting Stats: Weighed 266 lbs, Body Fat 37.6% (100 lbs), BMI 40.9

    Current Stats: Weight 140 lbs, Body Fat 15.2% (21.1 lbs), BMI 21.2

    Current Goals: Get a stronger core through Pilates and continue being as Primal as I can be.

    My Weight Loss Notes Now on a blog page. It starts with "My Weight Loss: Introduction." Available to the public, share with friends if you'd like!

  9. #59
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    http://www.direct-ms.org/pdf/Evoluti...al%20Sword.pdf

    Re: grains- That's a good place to start. I've sent that link to many people, and it is generally well-received. Cordain does not vilify grains in this paper, instead he points out that they are not an ideal source of nutrition and can cause damage in some people. He also admits that some people can eat grains without any seemingly detrimental effect.

    I think it's good to keep an open mind that what works for one will not work for all, while still being willing to share information. Yes it can be heartbreaking when you see someone you love with diabetes who eats high amounts of refined grains and refuses to change. And it's frustrating when people dismiss your success because they believe what they've learned their whole lives about nutrition. But if someone wants to make a change, they will, and being positive and reasonable is a good approach for most cases. It works for Mark Sisson - that guy keeps things light, informative, but not too preachy. He gives options & links to studies, then says "make your own decision".
    Jen, former Midwesterner, living in the middle of nowhere.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimhensen View Post
    Also, just because someone eats grains it doesn't mean they are unhealthy or would be healthier if they gave them up. The research doesn't support it and that is why primal will never become mainstream.
    It wasn't so long ago cigaretts were adverticed as healthy for your gut. One even had a campainge where your physician would prescribe you with one package a day. People who said "That could be unhealty" were laught at. Same with the scientist who said "Well, maybe Transfats aren't that good for us, and maybe they kill people". People laught at her, and she lost her job. Well that was a long time ago. And today well we know, transfats are killing us as does smoking. Not all of us for sure, as some are better in adapting then others. But let's face it, fat people maybe don't adapt that well, thats why they are fat after all.
    So why did it take us so long to start a battle against smoking and transfats and to big soda cans? Could it be that there is money in all that? There certainly is in Smokes, me myself payed about 16000 for tabacos, well most of it actualy were taxes as a pacage of cigarets is worth about 10Cent and we pay 4 for it. And it tends to make you an addict, wich is quite good, if you wanna sell.
    I wish people would get addicted to reading. Would make my life more easy.
    What about HFCS. I don't have much of a problem with that, as it isn't used so much in europe. Maybe thats the reasen we are fat, but not so fat. It's cheap and people like it and go all crazy about it. Yay sweet.

    What about Transfats? They were cheap too and necessary because let's face it, bakers need them and loved them. And allthough most people think Mc Donalds to be the biggest fast food chain, actually the bakers are the biggest.

    And maybe because farming industrie is so big in america, and there is so much money in it. When talking about farms in the USA i allways see these pictures of large cornfields with 12 harvesters farming the crop. The farmers lobbyists wouldn't like someone to say "Hey, maybe thats causing damage to our health" But there is evidence. Celiac disease has quadrupled the last few years. One in a hundret persons has it and even more don't have it but are glutein sensitive.
    Insulin resistance is uprising, aswell as Diabetes. The USA has a epidemy of 9 month old diabetic, not weith heird diabetes but with gained.

    But there is money in disease too. And the same companys selling tabacos and selling HFCS sell medicine.
    It's like the catholic church who preaches how bad contraception is and what a sin it is. But they ore shareholders of companies selling contraception. I would say that makes them a hypocrite.
    And the problem is all over the world there is no uproar against that. People belive in what companies tell them.

    There was a scene in an old science fiction movie. Some guys from the future came back to the 20 century and went to restaurant. They ordered a steak with butter and salad, while the people around him ate low fat and high carb meals. So one timetraveler asked the others "What are they doing" and the other answered "Well they thought that to be healthy those days".
    I still think change can happen.

    On the other hand does it matter? We are 7 000 000 000 man and women on this planet. Thats quite a lot. And concidering global warming and desertification and the killing of our planet. We could let some people die on obesidy, others on smoking and realy who cares about cancer or heart diseases when it's not about him or his beloved?

    It is strange how people care about murderers and terrorists and are willing to abadon civil freedoms and rights. But when we murder our own by disease, by us not daring to change a dogma, we are looking and telling us, hey they are fat, they deserve.

    And maybe it is not the grains maybe everything is ok, and syndrom x cancer and obesidy are just answers of nature. A joke of evolution saying "hey you are not that fit". But is't it worth trying? Isn't it worth spreading knoledge that helped?
    Even if someone is wrong but his way works, isn't it better than not to try?
    Define insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results. It's time for change.

    And i am sorry for my english, haven't had an opportunity to practice the last years.

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