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  1. #51
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    Primal Fuel
    Google Sugar: Pure, White & Awesome by Danny Roddy.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by KimInGA View Post
    Wow, I've never even heard of this before. I can certainly try to be even more strictly ketogenic, although I was already quite low on the carbs as I've been eating an anti-candida diet at the suggestion of my naturopath doctor. I did find that going super low on the carbs seemed to lead to worse insomnia than normal though. Again it is something I've been working with my naturopath doctor on, using some herbal remedies as well as the old tried and true Benadryl. (If you're wondering why naturopath, it's being a variety of western doctors have completely ignored me so I gave up on them.) I characterize the fatigue as being separate from insomnia because I find that I'm very quickly exhausted even if I get a full night of 8-9 hours sleep. It's also a different feeling, one being "ugh I didn't sleep enough. I want a nap." and the other being "ugh I feel like I'm moving underwater when I try to walk uphill / climb stairs / etc." Hope I'm making sense. The feeling is like I'm simply unable to effectively use the energy I know I have stored up ... which I was calling fat metabolism, although that might not be the right terminology.

    Is there any known test or cure for this disease? Or is it just something one manages by following a strict diet and living within the limits it places on strength/stamina?
    The bad news with respect to this pathology is that it is a genetic defect in the glycogen synthase enzyme that you would have had from birth. Since it is genetic, other members of your family would probably have it as well.

    The reason I'm leaning towards a glycogen storage problem is precisely because of the "moving underwater" feeling which would suggest to me an energy metabolism problem. You clearly have had the same intuition, although your answer has been to blame lipid metabolism.

    You might actually have type II glycogen storage disease, because that can manifest later in life, not necessarily since birth.

    If you do have glycogen storage disease, and depending upon the variant there are diagnostic tests and therapies available.

    There is an association for folks suffering from various forms of this pathology. I've linked their website here. Their site quite comprehensive and comprehensible.

    -PK
    My blog : cogitoergoedo.com

    Interested in Intermittent Fasting? This might help: part 1, part 2, part 3.

  3. #53
    Dave Mayo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KimInGA View Post
    No ... not really good at any sports, sadly. Lack of coordination combined with being a major introvert = no good at team sports. The only reason I even ran cross-country was because the high school team needed 5 girls to compete and had only 4, and someone spotted me jogging SLOOOOOWLY out on the roads (in an effort to lose weight) and begged me to join. I always finished last but at least the other girls could compete as individuals that way!

    As for my weight, no, it really doesn't fluctuate much. It's been 140 +/- 2 lbs ever since I was 13 yrs old, with the except of when I ran x-country (got down to 130 with all that running plus strict 1200-1500 calorie diet). It was 140 when I ate a high-carb, low-fat SAD diet. And it's 140 now that I've switched to a high-fat, high-protein, low-carb paleo diet. No difference in weight, inches, body fat, etc.

    By "a full body program" you mean doing all the different machines at a gym, right? I don't currently belong to a gym and just use the equipment I have at home - - stair stepper, incline bench, and 5/10/25 lb dumbbells. I used to go to a gym but didn't find a new one after I moved to my current house, largely because I never saw any results at all and got tired of putting in so much effort without seeing the tiniest change. I mean, why do a 45-min kick-your-ass spin class followed by a circuit of weight machines 3x per week when I don't get any results at all? I tried a trainer too and although I FELT really tired/sore after, again I never saw any results in weight, inches, general feeling of wellbeing, etc. Seemed like a lot of time and money down the drain.
    My recommendation would be to skip the spin classes and just weight train. 30-45 minutes 2-3 times a week is fine, but it should be intense. After a few weeks of training with 12 reps to adjust to training, cut the reps down to between 4-8. Also, full recovery between sets is necessary to restore glycogen in the fibers you are trying to train. Most people will bang out a circuit or supersets but this is foolish, you'll never engage the muscle fibers that you need to engage to improve glycogen storage if you are destroying yourself in the gym. What I have found to work best with myself as well as most of my clients is 3 sets of push and pull Monday, 3 sets of hip dominant and knee dominant leg work on Tuesday, Wednesday off, 3 sets of push and pull on Thursday in the other plane of motion, and sprints or legs again on Friday. Getting full recovery and doing 6 total sets of intense work should take less than 30 minutes per session. It should also be progressive in nature, your goal should be to start slow, but increase the load on each exercise whenever appropriate. Outside of that, walk 10k steps a day. I've found nothing more effective than this protocol, and it seems to be optimal while requiring very little time. I have no idea if you have glycogen storage disease, but I do know you do absolutely no glycolytic activity so I would venture a guess that you probably store very little glycogen anyway. If you store little glycogen then you probably have few mitochondria because the fatty acid oxidation that occurs in the mitochondria either powers endurance exercise which you don't do or supports recovery from glycolytic activity which you don't do either. You could try to force this adaptation with distance running, but it sounds like you aren't built for that stuff and the amount of effort and time that you would need to do this would be exponentially higher. Give it a try for 6 weeks, that should be plenty of time to see a beneficial physiological adaptation. If you don't get a positive response then maybe there is another issue at work.
    Last edited by Dave Mayo; 06-23-2012 at 05:07 AM.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by KimInGA View Post
    I am kind of afraid that CFS is what it is. I wonder if it's essentially a low-level epstein-barr virus infection that just never quite goes away? I was hoping to hear that someone else had similar symptoms and had found a way to overcome it with some combination of diet, supplements, exercise regime ... whatever.

    Did you feel like the B12 injections helped? I take a B-complex pill right now but I've heard it can't compare to B12 injections as far as results go.

    I've tried D-ribose and it was like a magical energy-booster for the first 2 weeks, but then the results seemed to greatly diminish. Really sad about that because the first 10 days or so were giving me hope that I could feel normal! I remember one morning I had so much energy that I was skipping around the house in delight. I wonder if that's what normal people feel like after a good night of sleep?
    The highlighted part above is pretty much how my doctor explained it to me. It will always be in your system and will come up on blood tests but unless your immune system is under stress it will stay dormant, if not, you will relapse and begin to get symptoms again when the disease becomes active. The B12 injections were integral in my recovery. If I hadn't have had them I shudder to think where I might be today. The thing with CFS is I don't think you ever get 'truly' better and I think I have finally come to a point in my life of finally realizing this (I contracted it when I was 15 years old and I am now 34, so better late than never I suppose!) You can get to a point where it is manageable but I know I will never feel 'normal' again. It's a real balancing act with regards to supplements, nutrition, sleep, exercise and the biggest one for me is stress management.
    I really need to get myself some D-Ribose if it makes you feel like that! Even if it does only last for a short while...........I sleep around 8-9 hours a night and still wake up feeling like I've had none! I take a whole host of supplements but the ones that I find help me the most are L-Glutamine, CoEnzyme Q10 and a high strength pure cod liver oil. I take quite alot of supplements but these ones are the ones I have found to be the most beneficial. I also try to take my supplements as powders and liquids instead of tablets and capsules as I find they absorb far more easily and I get the benefits much sooner.
    Last edited by TARNIP; 06-23-2012 at 06:04 AM.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Mayo View Post
    My recommendation would be to skip the spin classes and just weight train. 30-45 minutes 2-3 times a week is fine, but it should be intense. After a few weeks of training with 12 reps to adjust to training, cut the reps down to between 4-8. Also, full recovery between sets is necessary to restore glycogen in the fibers you are trying to train. Most people will bang out a circuit or supersets but this is foolish, you'll never engage the muscle fibers that you need to engage to improve glycogen storage if you are destroying yourself in the gym. What I have found to work best with myself as well as most of my clients is 3 sets of push and pull Monday, 3 sets of hip dominant and knee dominant leg work on Tuesday, Wednesday off, 3 sets of push and pull on Thursday in the other plane of motion, and sprints or legs again on Friday. Getting full recovery and doing 6 total sets of intense work should take less than 30 minutes per session. It should also be progressive in nature, your goal should be to start slow, but increase the load on each exercise whenever appropriate. Outside of that, walk 10k steps a day. I've found nothing more effective than this protocol, and it seems to be optimal while requiring very little time. I have no idea if you have glycogen storage disease, but I do know you do absolutely no glycolytic activity so I would venture a guess that you probably store very little glycogen anyway. If you store little glycogen then you probably have few mitochondria because the fatty acid oxidation that occurs in the mitochondria either powers endurance exercise which you don't do or supports recovery from glycolytic activity which you don't do either. You could try to force this adaptation with distance running, but it sounds like you aren't built for that stuff and the amount of effort and time that you would need to do this would be exponentially higher. Give it a try for 6 weeks, that should be plenty of time to see a beneficial physiological adaptation. If you don't get a positive response then maybe there is another issue at work.
    Not all metabolic nails can be pounded in via the "eat more meat, lift heavy things regularly" hammer.

    Any working hypothesis needs to address the known data and explain it. If it cannot, then it is at best, incomplete, and at worst, downright wrong. When it comes to people's health, as Ancel Keys so aptly demonstrated, being wrong can have very serious consequences.

    With that said, one key issue here is the onset of hypoglycemia from simply abstaining from eating. Obviously, there is an issue with maintaining normoglycemia. Since the issue presents significantly after the last feeding episode, then there is a problem with glucagon, glycogenolysis, or some other aspect of glucose release metabolism.

    The second thing that we need to explain is the exercise intolerance (emphasis mine):

    Quote Originally Posted by Glycogenoses and Glycogen Storage Diseases, General Aspects
    McArdle’s disease results from the deficiency of the muscle isoform of glycogen phosphorylase (myophosphorylase). This is the first myopathy in which a single enzyme defect was demonstrated. It is also entirely restricted to muscle. Other than the fatal infantile form, McArdle’s disease is compatible with long-term survival. It is classically associated with life long exercise intolerance. The initial symptoms are mild and patient may be carrying a label of “lazyness”. Later symptoms include muscle cramps after exercise, myoglobinuria, and, in later course of the disease, muscle wasting. Severe sternous exercise may cause myoglobinuria that is severe enough to cause acute renal failure. In the past, many cases are not diagnosed until adulthood. Histologically, there is an increased storage of glycogen and absence of phosphorylase activity. The presence of abundance of necrotic and regenerating fibers could qualify this disease as a muscular dystrophy. The biochemical structure of the stored glycogen is normal.
    So, this is a myopathy ( muscle disease ) that has potentially deadly implications for sufferers, especially those attempting intense exercise. Also note that this is a progressive disease, which means that activity that was previously tolerated can subsequently not be.

    Now, I sincerely hope that the original poster does not suffer from any glycogen storage pathology, but we have a theory that seems to explain the known data, so I would want her to talk to a physician and conclusively rule it out before undertaking any activity that may potentially harm her.

    -PK
    My blog : cogitoergoedo.com

    Interested in Intermittent Fasting? This might help: part 1, part 2, part 3.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by pklopp View Post
    Not all metabolic nails can be pounded in via the "eat more meat, lift heavy things regularly" hammer.

    Any working hypothesis needs to address the known data and explain it. If it cannot, then it is at best, incomplete, and at worst, downright wrong. When it comes to people's health, as Ancel Keys so aptly demonstrated, being wrong can have very serious consequences.

    With that said, one key issue here is the onset of hypoglycemia from simply abstaining from eating. Obviously, there is an issue with maintaining normoglycemia. Since the issue presents significantly after the last feeding episode, then there is a problem with glucagon, glycogenolysis, or some other aspect of glucose release metabolism.

    The second thing that we need to explain is the exercise intolerance (emphasis mine):



    So, this is a myopathy ( muscle disease ) that has potentially deadly implications for sufferers, especially those attempting intense exercise. Also note that this is a progressive disease, which means that activity that was previously tolerated can subsequently not be.

    Now, I sincerely hope that the original poster does not suffer from any glycogen storage pathology, but we have a theory that seems to explain the known data, so I would want her to talk to a physician and conclusively rule it out before undertaking any activity that may potentially harm her.

    -PK
    Your hypothesis is that she has a disease that affects .00167% of the population. She doesn't exercise and eats little to no carbs, why would she have energy? Has she somewhere stated she has the signs and symptoms of the disease? From wikipedia:

    Late onset features include impaired cough, recurrent chest infections, hypotonia, progressive muscle weakness, delayed motor milestones, difficulty swallowing or chewing and reduced vital capacity.

    Of course she should speak to her doctor before beginning an exercise program, but I highly doubt she's going to tell him everything she told us here and he's going to go, "No, you have Glycogen Storage Disease Type II." He's going to say, "Sure, go ahead, exercise would help immensely!" And I don't think I would classify a 16 year old female who ran 3-6 miles at a pace of 8:30 mile every day for a few months as has having a lifelong intolerance to exercise. They certainly wouldn't be a responder to aerobic exercise, but definitely not intolerant to it.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Mayo View Post
    Your hypothesis is that she has a disease that affects .00167% of the population. She doesn't exercise and eats little to no carbs, why would she have energy? Has she somewhere stated she has the signs and symptoms of the disease? From wikipedia:

    Late onset features include impaired cough, recurrent chest infections, hypotonia, progressive muscle weakness, delayed motor milestones, difficulty swallowing or chewing and reduced vital capacity.

    Of course she should speak to her doctor before beginning an exercise program, but I highly doubt she's going to tell him everything she told us here and he's going to go, "No, you have Glycogen Storage Disease Type II." He's going to say, "Sure, go ahead, exercise would help immensely!" And I don't think I would classify a 16 year old female who ran 3-6 miles at a pace of 8:30 mile every day for a few months as has having a lifelong intolerance to exercise. They certainly wouldn't be a responder to aerobic exercise, but definitely not intolerant to it.
    No, actually my hypothesis is that there is an underlying pathology that a simplistic eat more / less, exercise more / less, more / less carbs, more / less fats, more / less grokking out will not address.

    I must say, though, that I am quite impressed with your mind reading abilities with respect to the average medical practitioner. If only you could predict the stock market as accurately...

    If you read my previous post, you might have noticed that I was referencing McArdle's disease specifically, due to the fact that :

    Many people with McArdle’s disease have been diagnosed only as adults, as for a number of reasons the condition often seems to escape diagnosis in children. People who have the disease can appear quite healthy, and as such the symptoms can be confused with poor conditioning or laziness.
    Given that "the symptoms can be confused with poor conditioning or laziness", coupled with late onset, and a general lack of awareness makes me highly skeptical of any claims as to the rate of incidence of the disease.

    Lastly, if you recall, the original post was concerned with energy metabolism and an underlying supposition that this represented a fat metabolism issue. I agree that it sounds like a metabolic pathology, but I would argue that the problem is glucose metabolism related.

    -PK
    My blog : cogitoergoedo.com

    Interested in Intermittent Fasting? This might help: part 1, part 2, part 3.

  8. #58
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    Didn't read all, but I was very tired wehn I first tried this. Here's what helped me: Do not fast, have primal snacks on hand but use only if real hunger hits. Eat a lot of protein for breakfast, fish or chicken and salad for lunch, meat and veggies and as many primal carbs for dinner as you like. No guilt over the carbs. They are good for you and you have to stay out of the transition zone to ketosis. Get your sleep and plenty of it. Et voila!

  9. #59
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    Just a suggestion but might you have a issue with eggs or another food sensitivy. Do you eat eggs ever day? The reason I am asking is I just found out I have issue with nightshade plants and nuts and eggs. Stopped eating eggs and tomatoes and I lost 5 pounds in one week and my energy is through the roof now. I wouldn't have believed it until I did the elimanation diet

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Mayo View Post
    Your hypothesis is that she has a disease that affects .00167% of the population. She doesn't exercise and eats little to no carbs, why would she have energy? Has she somewhere stated she has the signs and symptoms of the disease? From wikipedia:

    Late onset features include impaired cough, recurrent chest infections, hypotonia, progressive muscle weakness, delayed motor milestones, difficulty swallowing or chewing and reduced vital capacity.

    Of course she should speak to her doctor before beginning an exercise program, but I highly doubt she's going to tell him everything she told us here and he's going to go, "No, you have Glycogen Storage Disease Type II." He's going to say, "Sure, go ahead, exercise would help immensely!" And I don't think I would classify a 16 year old female who ran 3-6 miles at a pace of 8:30 mile every day for a few months as has having a lifelong intolerance to exercise. They certainly wouldn't be a responder to aerobic exercise, but definitely not intolerant to it.
    I really appreciate all the opinions and ideas everyone is offering. It's great to get a wide range of input like this. One thing I want to clear up though. It seems like everyone's going in the direction of "she doesn't exercise so she has little energy." It's actually the opposite though. I'm not exercising much because I have little energy. I have been working out pretty consistently since I was 14 years old (31 now). It's usually been 20-40 minutes of some form of cardio (running, stair-stepper, elliptical, spinning) combined with light weight-lifting, about 3-4x per week. I've always had poor energy levels and stamina, and I've never responded too well in the sense that I saw little improvement after years, but I've tried really hard to keep active anyway. It's been the past few months that things have gone downhill even more, to the point that most days I feel like I'm coming down with the flu (trying to think of something everyone has experienced).

    And yes I've been to doctors. They were totally useless in that they did not believe one bit of what I was telling them. The last one was a couple of months ago and I had to wait 3 hours to see him, only to have the guy blow me off when I said I've experienced fatigue, headaches, sore throats and insomnia for the past 15 years. So honestly I'm just done with the doctors, at least the western ones. They won't do anything for you unless they can test for the symptoms and prescribe a pill or surgery for it.

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