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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Mayo View Post
    Were you good at any other sports? You could just have more Type II fibers, which could be why you are not a good responder to endurance exercise and certainly explains a poor ability to burn fat in the absence of strength training. If that's the case I would make strength training a priority. Having more Type II fibers than Type I fibers would certainly mean a low number of mitochondria, and if you don't activate Type II muscle fibers they tend to convert from Type IIa (High mitochondria, good blood supply, and moderately insulin resistant) to Type IIx (Very few mitochondria, low blood supply, very insulin resistant). It would also help explain the lack of fat loss from an insulin resistance perspective, if you decide to cheat does your weight fluctuate a lot? I have no idea if you were ever insulin resistant or not, but you can't fix insulin resistance with diet alone. You need to get your muscles burning and storing more glycogen to make full improvements, diet cannot empty glycogen out of a cell, it can only prevent large insulin secretion via low carbohydrate consumption.

    You would need a full body program 2-3 times a week. For the best bang for your buck it should be low rep and high load. Start with 4 weeks of doing full body workouts for 3 sets of 12 and then switch it to 3 sets of 8. Your eventual goal should be to alternate 3 sets of 8 and 3 sets of 4 every other day. I bet that would provide significant improvements in energy levels and fatty acid oxidation.
    No ... not really good at any sports, sadly. Lack of coordination combined with being a major introvert = no good at team sports. The only reason I even ran cross-country was because the high school team needed 5 girls to compete and had only 4, and someone spotted me jogging SLOOOOOWLY out on the roads (in an effort to lose weight) and begged me to join. I always finished last but at least the other girls could compete as individuals that way!

    As for my weight, no, it really doesn't fluctuate much. It's been 140 +/- 2 lbs ever since I was 13 yrs old, with the except of when I ran x-country (got down to 130 with all that running plus strict 1200-1500 calorie diet). It was 140 when I ate a high-carb, low-fat SAD diet. And it's 140 now that I've switched to a high-fat, high-protein, low-carb paleo diet. No difference in weight, inches, body fat, etc.

    By "a full body program" you mean doing all the different machines at a gym, right? I don't currently belong to a gym and just use the equipment I have at home - - stair stepper, incline bench, and 5/10/25 lb dumbbells. I used to go to a gym but didn't find a new one after I moved to my current house, largely because I never saw any results at all and got tired of putting in so much effort without seeing the tiniest change. I mean, why do a 45-min kick-your-ass spin class followed by a circuit of weight machines 3x per week when I don't get any results at all? I tried a trainer too and although I FELT really tired/sore after, again I never saw any results in weight, inches, general feeling of wellbeing, etc. Seemed like a lot of time and money down the drain.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shuttle125 View Post
    You may need to play with your ratios, and greatly increase your fat intake while lowering your carb intake. You may never have reached low enough levels to completely transition.
    I've spent months with <10% of my calories coming from carbs, is that not low enough? Everything I saw/read suggested that under 50 grams is really very low.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by pklopp View Post
    I am speculating here, but you just might have a case of glycogen storage disease type 0, which is a deficiency in the glycogen synthase enzyme. If this is the case, the you cannot synthesize glycogen in the liver and / or muscles, which means that under circumstances where your pancreas is secreting glucagon to stimulate your liver to release glucose into the blood stream, the liver cannot comply, since it lacks the glycogen storage form of the glucose.

    Now you may think that the circumstances under which your pancreas secretes glucagon are limited, but in fact, glucagon is secreted pretty much after every mixed meal, approximately 2 hours after ingestion. You eat, insulin is produced by the pancreas, this lowers blood sugar a bit too much, but the pancreas secretes glucagon shortly after the insulin to goose glucose levels back and maintain normoglycemia. There are only two types of meals that do not follow this pattern: high carbohydrate and pure fat.

    If you do have this pathology, fasting for you is a bad idea. During the first 24 hours of a fast, normal individuals are relying on stored glycogen for energy. If you don't have any glycogen to speak of, that is obviously only going to result in you going hypoglycemic. Further, there is simply no way for you to "train yourself" into releasing glucose to tide you over during your intermittent fasts ... your metabolism is simply incapable of this mode of operation.

    There is also another broader implication here. If you decide to train, and specifically, train by adopting conventional grok wisdom using sprints, you are dead meat ( exaggerating here ). Sprinting is an anaerobic activity meaning that it relies largely on fast twitch muscle which in turn relies heavily on glycolytic respiration. Which brings us back to the fact that folks with glycogen synthase disease don't have any glycogen to spare, which means that glycolysis is not going to go very far for them, and fatigue will set in much more quickly than for a normal individual. Training for such a person would be a challenge, and they would have to avoid short intense bursts of activity, instead relying on higher repetition ranges with lower weight and force output. Unfortunately, you are not off the hook with respect to endurance type activities either, because all muscle types rely on glycolysis for energy production to some extent, it's just that the fast twitch fibers do so much more extensively than the slow twitch. And, sadly, again, you cannot train your way out this.

    I do not have glycogen storage disease, but if did, I think that I would attempt to address it with a strict ketogenic diet, more akin to what is prescribed for severe epilepsy rather than the conventional "wrap everything in bacon" version. Basically, you want to eat extremely high fat, moderate protein, low carb. I think your ratios would be something along 70/20/10 at least. The basic idea is to avoid meals that require a compensatory glucagon release, which pretty much puts a limit on protein which is quite insulinogenic. High carbohydrate diets would be a problem because one of the primary disposal pathways, synthesis of glycogen in the liver and muscles is simply impossible ... people with glycogen storage disease simply cannot carbo load!

    If you were eating a strict ketogenic diet, meal frequency would not be much of an issue for you.

    Lastly, though, keep in mind that the incidence of this disease is fairly low, I think on the order of 1 in 25000 people has it. However, this low incidence rate may be due to inadequate diagnostic tests and or medical awareness. But again, that is more speculation on my part. You might want to run this by your doctor.

    Hope you sort it out. If you do decide to go the ketogenic route, let us know how you make out.

    -PK
    Wow, I've never even heard of this before. I can certainly try to be even more strictly ketogenic, although I was already quite low on the carbs as I've been eating an anti-candida diet at the suggestion of my naturopath doctor. I did find that going super low on the carbs seemed to lead to worse insomnia than normal though. Again it is something I've been working with my naturopath doctor on, using some herbal remedies as well as the old tried and true Benadryl. (If you're wondering why naturopath, it's being a variety of western doctors have completely ignored me so I gave up on them.) I characterize the fatigue as being separate from insomnia because I find that I'm very quickly exhausted even if I get a full night of 8-9 hours sleep. It's also a different feeling, one being "ugh I didn't sleep enough. I want a nap." and the other being "ugh I feel like I'm moving underwater when I try to walk uphill / climb stairs / etc." Hope I'm making sense. The feeling is like I'm simply unable to effectively use the energy I know I have stored up ... which I was calling fat metabolism, although that might not be the right terminology.

    Is there any known test or cure for this disease? Or is it just something one manages by following a strict diet and living within the limits it places on strength/stamina?

  4. #44
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by fiercehunter View Post
    Huh. This seems to be almost completely at odds with what everyone else is suggesting: "Based on all these factors a moderate plan for weight loss would be a diet of mostly low fat milk/dairy products ... ripe fruits such as fresh squeezed strained OJ ... and nutrient dense foods such as liver, shellfish, eggs, cocoa". I say almost because I think everyone is on-board with the "nutrient dense foods" bit. Anyway, very confusing.

    My goal is not to lose weight, although I wouldn't argue if it were a side effect. I just want to not feel crappy all the time. I feel fatigued whether I eat low-fat high-carb or high-fat low-carb. I feel fatigued whether I work out 4-5 days a week or remain mostly sedentary aside from mile-long walks around the neighborhood. My frustration boiled over when I had a great breakfast of coffee with whole milk, scrambled eggs, bacon, and berries ... then went on a hike with some friends. They seemed fine whereas I literally thought my legs were going to collapse underneath me. It's like there was no energy whatsoever available to draw from. Not like being winded or something, but like the muscles were at their point of collapse. Is that not weird??

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by KimInGA View Post
    Huh. This seems to be almost completely at odds with what everyone else is suggesting: .....
    Thats because it is. Its written by Cliff who is a Ray Peat disciple on the fringe. I'd put ZERO stock into it.

  7. #47
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    I've been hearing a lot of talk about green coffee beans lately for fat metabolism.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by KimInGA View Post
    Huh. This seems to be almost completely at odds with what everyone else is suggesting: "Based on all these factors a moderate plan for weight loss would be a diet of mostly low fat milk/dairy products ... ripe fruits such as fresh squeezed strained OJ ... and nutrient dense foods such as liver, shellfish, eggs, cocoa". I say almost because I think everyone is on-board with the "nutrient dense foods" bit. Anyway, very confusing.

    My goal is not to lose weight, although I wouldn't argue if it were a side effect. I just want to not feel crappy all the time. I feel fatigued whether I eat low-fat high-carb or high-fat low-carb. I feel fatigued whether I work out 4-5 days a week or remain mostly sedentary aside from mile-long walks around the neighborhood. My frustration boiled over when I had a great breakfast of coffee with whole milk, scrambled eggs, bacon, and berries ... then went on a hike with some friends. They seemed fine whereas I literally thought my legs were going to collapse underneath me. It's like there was no energy whatsoever available to draw from. Not like being winded or something, but like the muscles were at their point of collapse. Is that not weird??



    Throughout your thread as you describe yourself and your symptoms, I swear you are describing myself. I have suffered with recurrent infections ever since I can remember and doctors constantly dosed me up with antibiotics. I spent the better half of my life on antibiotics. I eventually contracted glandular fever (mono) and cytomegalovirus (CMV) which led to the CFS. Luckily I found a doctor that was a GP but also specialized in chinese medicine and he gave me vitamin B12 injections every week for YEARS. I still suffer to this day from everything you are explaining here. These days I only do what I can manage to do. I am fine with lifting weights but not good with any cardio besides walking (anything else will put me out for days). I have been doing some research and I'm going to start supplementing with D-Ribose and L-Carnitine as i am hoping this will help at a cellular level. I also lack energy whether I go low carb/high fat or high carb/low fat, so now just try to eat healthy (and often). I cannot fast as I feel like I am going to pass out it's that bad. You are lucky that you don't need to lose weight. I really need to lose about 60 pounds but with all this going on inside me a large part of me doubts it will ever be a possibility :-( I also have multiple food allergies and the only thing that causes me no symptoms at all is meat.......... I would certainly recommended to get tested for CFS as everything you explain here is what I go through on a daily basis.
    Last edited by TARNIP; 06-22-2012 at 02:22 AM.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihana View Post
    How much have you been checked out by a Doctor?
    Yes I've been to a couple of doctors, primary-care as my insurance requires a referral from primary care in order to see a specialist. They have all acted like I'm crazy/exaggerating when I explain the constant fatigue, poor reaction to exercise, frequent headaches and sore throats, and insomnia. They have all totally blown me off. When I suggested that the insomnia felt like it was due to cortisol levels being too high, the one doctor looked at me like, Ahhhh another crazy one. And told me that he could prescribe Ambien or maybe something "to help me manage my anxiety". I was like, buddy, I am one of the calmest people you'll ever meet. I do not have a problem with anxiety. And I had already stated 4x over that I did not want to resort to prescription-strength sleeping pills! That's all they want to do though, ignore any difficult symptoms and throw pills at the rest. Sigh.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by TARNIP View Post
    [/B]


    Throughout your thread as you describe yourself and your symptoms, I swear you are describing myself. I have suffered with recurrent infections ever since I can remember and doctors constantly dosed me up with antibiotics. I spent the better half of my life on antibiotics. I eventually contracted glandular fever (mono) and cytomegalovirus (CMV) which led to the CFS. Luckily I found a doctor that was a GP but also specialized in chinese medicine and he gave me vitamin B12 injections every week for YEARS. I still suffer to this day from everything you are explaining here. These days I only do what I can manage to do. I am fine with lifting weights but not good with any cardio besides walking (anything else will put me out for days). I have been doing some research and I'm going to start supplementing with D-Ribose and L-Carnitine as i am hoping this will help at a cellular level. I also lack energy whether I go low carb/high fat or high carb/low fat, so now just try to eat healthy (and often). I cannot fast as I feel like I am going to pass out it's that bad. You are lucky that you don't need to lose weight. I really need to lose about 60 pounds but with all this going on inside me a large part of me doubts it will ever be a possibility :-( I also have multiple food allergies and the only thing that causes me no symptoms at all is meat.......... I would certainly recommended to get tested for CFS as everything you explain here is what I go through on a daily basis.
    I am kind of afraid that CFS is what it is. I wonder if it's essentially a low-level epstein-barr virus infection that just never quite goes away? I was hoping to hear that someone else had similar symptoms and had found a way to overcome it with some combination of diet, supplements, exercise regime ... whatever.

    Did you feel like the B12 injections helped? I take a B-complex pill right now but I've heard it can't compare to B12 injections as far as results go.

    I've tried D-ribose and it was like a magical energy-booster for the first 2 weeks, but then the results seemed to greatly diminish. Really sad about that because the first 10 days or so were giving me hope that I could feel normal! I remember one morning I had so much energy that I was skipping around the house in delight. I wonder if that's what normal people feel like after a good night of sleep?

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